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Old 09-19-2012, 10:22 PM   #101
izergfx
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I don't think you follow what we're, or at least I'm, saying.

I would like to see how this style kit compares to a traditional Subaru header & rotated up pipe setup with everything else the same or as similar as possible, within reason.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:43 PM   #102
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The closest thing I could find on 93 pump gas/no meth was an 04 STi with an ATP3076, althought non-catted downpipe. Coincidentally the car has our header on it It made nearly the same whp, but 30ft/lbs less and reached full boost 450RPMs later.




If anyone can find a better comparison please post. I like to use the EFI dyno database because it's huge and where the car/kit was last run. I could not find any 3071 that comes close on 93 pump. Most fall 20+whp/wtq short
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:45 PM   #103
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Okay well then once some final numbers are posted; search for the same Turbo with a FMIC and draw your own conclusions. Make sure to consider tuners, dyno settings, heat etc.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:01 PM   #104
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This is a GT3071 with the small exhaust side and 2.5" outlet on an ancient Perrin Rotated Kit / FMIC, EL HEader, 06 STi. 86mm Draw Through MAF

Seems to perform exactly on par with the blue run above, Im just posting it to reenforce your results against a rotated kit. 360whp, 333wtq, 22 psi, full boost even later. Our dyno reads in the same ballpark as EFI's

Wicked M@
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:14 AM   #105
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Hmm so maybe I'll hold off on my TS rotated and get this when it comes out
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:22 AM   #106
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Lets be real here people, these crazy locations for turbos are cool and all but this better be a "special use car" cause here in colorado or anywhere that sees any weather this setup is a total death shot. one puddle, one chunk of ice or snow and who knows what you can break. GRANTED if you have the means to have a spare car only to be driven when its absolutly perfect outside then your lucky and have fun. There are plenty of performance reasons to do setups like this but not many from a practicality sense. DEDICATED FUN car?! then hell yeah, have fun!
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:49 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting View Post
Lets be real here people, these crazy locations for turbos are cool and all but this better be a "special use car" cause here in colorado or anywhere that sees any weather this setup is a total death shot. one puddle, one chunk of ice or snow and who knows what you can break. GRANTED if you have the means to have a spare car only to be driven when its absolutly perfect outside then your lucky and have fun. There are plenty of performance reasons to do setups like this but not many from a practicality sense. DEDICATED FUN car?! then hell yeah, have fun!
This car is driven every day. I'm in the mountains in Virginia and we do get snow (54" in 10 days 2 years ago!). The turbo is filtered and well protected by chassis as well as the factory bellypan. It's been driven through terrential downpours and will be driven this winter as well. Will it be up to the task of rust belt winters? I don't see why not, but those who go snowbankin usually break things anyway and I would never promise the kit would be indestructable under those conditions. The car is by no means a dedicated nice weather car only.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:00 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting View Post
Lets be real here people, these crazy locations for turbos are cool and all but this better be a "special use car" cause here in colorado or anywhere that sees any weather this setup is a total death shot. one puddle, one chunk of ice or snow and who knows what you can break.
I don't see this being an issue with this kit. Have you seen the turbo location on the new FA20 engine? It's pretty much the lowest part of the engine which is why it requires a scavenge pump. Same deal with the previous gen Legacy 2.5 (pretty sure it was the Legacy) that had the turbo mounted down and in the middle. Heck, Porsche 911 turbos also have their turbos mounted very low and require scavenge pumps.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:10 PM   #109
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cool man thats good to hear, I'd love to hear how it fairs this winter, take some pics of it snowy, better yet mount a suction cup gopro facing the turbo so we can see what hits it!
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:28 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting View Post
cool man thats good to hear, I'd love to hear how it fairs this winter, take some pics of it snowy, better yet mount a suction cup gopro facing the turbo so we can see what hits it!


What part of 'the turbo isn't exposed to the elements' do you not understand?

Considering KB normally uses stabilized stainless with thicker walls and this kit uses a stainless turbine housing, I'd expect it to fare better than the stock legacy low mount setup after a harsh winter.
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:52 PM   #111
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I would like to see how a 18/20G sized turbo would work with this kit. I bet the response would be killer, especially for those Autox junkies like me.
Yeah.. if you're in XP or something.

This kit replaces the bumper beam.. which isn't even legal in SM.

Which is disappointing, because otherwise this kit looks very top notch and cool . Unfortunately, this kit doesn't look like it is being designed for those of us who enjoy AutoX... a GD in XP isn't a popular option...
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:05 AM   #112
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Interesting debate on the subject...

RIGHT HERE

I'm more a road coarse kinda guy myself, but still interesting stuff.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:33 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izergfx View Post
I don't think you follow what we're, or at least I'm, saying.

I would like to see how this style kit compares to a traditional Subaru header & rotated up pipe setup with everything else the same or as similar as possible, within reason.
yeah that's my thought. if killer b just set their car up with the same turbo or whatever as someone elses car with (just as an example) a perrin header/fmic for a comparo. the whole purpose of these is to spool faster so...
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:24 AM   #114
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The scavenge pump is for oil return right? The reason i ask is do you (killer b) think some complexity could be simplified with the oiless bearing design that comp turbo offers?

I believe you mentioned you worked with garett on this for turbo dimensions, i was just curious if you had considered it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:09 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
yeah that's my thought. if killer b just set their car up with the same turbo or whatever as someone elses car with (just as an example) a perrin header/fmic for a comparo. the whole purpose of these is to spool faster so...
I'm also interested in seeing how it stacks up against a twinscroll kit, and a singlescroll divided housing helper valve setup.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:39 PM   #116
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The scavenge pump is for oil return right? The reason i ask is do you (killer b) think some complexity could be simplified with the oiless bearing design that comp turbo offers?
Correct. For a track car that sees regular engine breakdown/rebuilds maybe, but I was told not to expect long term daily driver reliability on an oil-less setup. The cost for the scavenge setup seemed well worth the cost for the reliability. Our setup cost ~$500 and is about as much as you can spend on a setup. There are less expensive pumps out there and a similar setup could be had on a budget for probably ~$350.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izergfx View Post
I'm also interested in seeing how it stacks up against a twinscroll kit, and a singlescroll divided housing helper valve setup.
Won't happen. There is just physically no space for any housing except the stainless Tial.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:58 PM   #117
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Again, I'm talking about a comparison against an existing kit...
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:55 PM   #118
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This is a fairly easy search on EFI Logics dyno database. Here are 3 other setups with similar power with a larger turbo. The significant difference is SPOOL...



I think this is my favorite because it shows similar power levels with MUCH less lag.




Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 09-21-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:01 PM   #119
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Here's another one vs Turbo XS rotated.



vs Full-Race TS, rotated intake manifold an no cat. Despite the F-R setup having bigger peak numbers the Killer B setup has significantly more power are under the curve.


Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 09-21-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:10 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
This is a fairly easy search on EFI Logics dyno database. Here are 3 other setups with similar power with a larger turbo. The significant difference is SPOOL...
I think this is my favorite because it shows similar power levels with MUCH less lag.
Obviously, they're larger turbos.

Regarding power, the graphs don't show boost. One of them even says 'the car is underpowered'.

Something is up with the TS FR 35r as well, it get outspooled by a perrin kit. The graphs really need boost/afr and ambient data to make an accurate comparison.

Quick comparison on 3071s:

http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/graph....rgb5=255153000


Last edited by izergfx; 09-21-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:30 PM   #121
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The green lines are actually on 100 octane. Look at the plots for that particular car/setup and you can see the typo unless you think 93 makes more power than 100

Anyway, I let the notes speak for themselves as far as tuning goes Chris generally tunes them the same, safe/conservative, unless otherwise requested. The AFRs should be very similar. Boost, as expected, will vary since they are on differnet turbos, intercoolers, etc. There are MANY others to choose from, I just grabbed GDs, pump, rotated setups (regardless of size, but with similar power) for comparison. I think the usefull data here is same dyno, same tuner, MANY different setups.

You will generally find larger turbos making the same power with more lag, or smaller turbos with similar response and less power.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:42 PM   #122
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a better comparison there with those 4 graphs given that they are all the same turbo....but i think you need to take into consideration a few things (and apply the common sense you espouse to want to see)

1- only one of the graphs, the green one, comes close to matching the killer B. The killer b was dyno'd in the middle of june and the other in september. probably a temperature/humidity difference to take into consideration.

2- the green graph and the purple graph are the same car. One on 93 octane, one on 100. Did you find it odd that the 100oct file a-ran less boost b- spooled up later c- made less power? Or did you skip that part of your evaluation? The most obvious answer is that the dude jamming the info into the dyno mixed up the two graphs. So the killer b kit came on and spooled up and made power like the 100octane file at pretty much the same boost and is coming on 300-500 rpm's faster than the atp kit on 93.

I consider that impressive.

edit: killer b clicked post just before me
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:01 PM   #123
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I'm sure this is a great kit, but comparing it to larger turbo's that make the same power is not fair and really it doesn't make any sense at all. Obviously a larger turbo is going to spool slower. This will be especially obvious when it's compared to a smaller turbo that is tuned more aggressively.

The GTX3071R 0.63 A/R with the Killer B kit hits 20psi about 3600rpm's. This is a solid 200-300rpm's faster than I'd expect to see from a turbo that size with a standard mounting location. That seems reasonable. Comparing it against rotated 35R's on low boost and implying that it spools 800-1000rpm's sooner is very misleading.

IMO, the best advertising would have been to build up the car with a standard turbo mount and the same turbo. Dyno it. Then swap on the KillerB remote mount kit with the same turbo, engine, etc, etc. Then dyno that. Compare. Probably wouldn't be too hard to find someone that has a rotated setup that would want to try a remote mount for their current turbo.

Just to be clear, this kit looks awesome. I just don't think these plots are fair comparisons at all.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:04 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtP View Post
edit: killer b clicked post just before me



^ Good eye
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:08 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I'm sure this is a great kit, but comparing it to larger turbo's that make the same power is not fair and really it doesn't make any sense at all. Obviously a larger turbo is going to spool slower. This will be especially obvious when it's compared to a smaller turbo that is tuned more aggressively.

The GTX3071R 0.63 A/R with the Killer B kit hits 20psi about 3600rpm's. This is a solid 200-300rpm's faster than I'd expect to see from a turbo that size with a standard mounting location. That seems reasonable. Comparing it against rotated 35R's on low boost and implying that it spools 800-1000rpm's sooner is very misleading.

IMO, the best advertising would have been to build up the car with a standard turbo mount and the same turbo. Dyno it. Then swap on the KillerB remote mount kit with the same turbo, engine, etc, etc. Then dyno that. Compare. Probably wouldn't be too hard to find someone that has a rotated setup that would want to try a remote mount for their current turbo.

Just to be clear, this kit looks awesome. I just don't think these plots are fair comparisons at all.
As peviously stated, your choices are bigger turbo with more lag or smaller turbo with less power. There is enough data available to show this, regardless if it's on the exact same car or not, the results will be similar.

And if it was on the same car you'd just say it was on different days, humuidity, etc...
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