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Old 10-02-2012, 03:01 PM   #101
Phatron
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meth COULD make close to the same power as E85, BUT i do not tune meth cars as aggressively as e85 cars. With meth you have to worry about it failing, not spraying evenly, running out of meth, etc. So typically my meth cars will end up around halfway in between pump and e85. if someone asks me to push their car more after I explain that to them, then i will.

Since meth is typically set to kick in ~8-12 psi, it usually has very little effect on anything before peak tq. So basically it will shift the graph up, not left.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07VTRex View Post
i want to chime in an say that i am having similar experiences with my DOM 1.5xtr. I have had almost the identical discussion with Ron, as he also tuned mine.

I want to say that this turbo is not all its cracked out to be, and i like many others have fallen for topspeed's propaganda on this turbo.

While i like this turbo better than my VF, it didnt live up to my expectations. Topend is definetly better, i enjoy the linear power delivery, but the low end is gone, and i am starting to miss it. It became immedietly apparent when pulling a VF suby locally and me being suprised i didnt smoke him

I am hoping that meth injection is going to bring this turbo to life, and get close to the results we have been lead to expect from topspeed's testing.

*Ron, is there anyway you could add my dyno plot to the above with OP and northmans to get a 3way comparo going? I am just curious as well as to how mine stacks up.

i am REALLY hoping meth can get me in the 340-350 range, with hopefully more improvement in the midrange torque. Just hope the stock block will hold that much, we will see
I agree that TopSpeed's testing was a little bit misleading for this turbo. They did not show the boost plots, but in the posts it is mentioned that they were all done on high boost. Usually in the 25-28psi range (on E85). This turbo on pump gas is going to have considerably more lag than a VF, but unless you push it to higher boost, you're really not going to see the payoff. At 20psi or so, you're going to lose a bunch of your powerband, and only gain a small amount up top.

I have the 20G XTR, which is very similar to the Dom 1.5XTR. Boost comes on considerably later than a VF (~600rpm's), but the low/mid range torque really isn't that far behind. But, since I run mine at much higher boost, I get a really strong midrange torque peak, and the top end holds on reasonably well. If I had the same spool, but only was making low/mid 300's WHP (ie. pump gas and 20psi), then I don't think I'd be very happy with the setup.

http://www.benjohnsonphotography.com...-5PvZSRL-L.jpg

I think Phatron might be right that this turbo isn't the best on a 2.5L. Especially not for one that is on pump gas unless you're willing to take the risk with a more aggressive tune. With E85 and more boost, I think it does well compared to the other turbo's of similar size, but the Dom 2.5 XTR also seems like a good option for someone wanting more top end.

EDIT: That 20G XTR log from the plot above does about 440WHP in Airboy.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:50 PM   #103
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And i really dont think Topspeeds testing was propaganda....i mean they dont make anymore money selling a 1.5xtr than they do a 2.5xtr....its just different dynos reading differently. Their DJ seems to read somewhere in the 15-25% range higher than airboy. I had a guy here in SoCal go get on a dynapack with a 20g on meth. he made 330-340 airboy and 420 on the dynapack. its really not that uncommon.

Blouch's site even says this turbo is made for a 2L. My advice to anyone running this on a 2.5L is to put it up for sale and get a 10cm2.5xtr
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:49 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
My advice to anyone running this on a 2.5L is to put it up for sale and get a 10cm2.5xtr
the previous posters were complaining about the loss of midrange, following your suggestion seems like going further in the same direction.

I only know what I've read on here, but the EFR turbos claim to do both midrange and top end. Perhaps when those become a bit more common we will see how much of that is hype.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:30 PM   #105
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^Seems 2013 is when their kick-ass turbo comes out with 50hp+ over current offerings. Would love to have an stock location "OEM grade" turbo, especially BorgWarner, I have been to their R&D center in Auburn Hills, it is high end.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:39 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northman View Post
the previous posters were complaining about the loss of midrange, following your suggestion seems like going further in the same direction.

I only know what I've read on here, but the EFR turbos claim to do both midrange and top end. Perhaps when those become a bit more common we will see how much of that is hype.
that has not been there complaints to me....both want more boost on the topend.

Basically....topspeed made 375whp, where's mine?

The complaint is really a combination of the increase in spool....and not so big increase in topend. Going backwards to a smaller turbo is not going to result in more topend.

The only way for them to go backwards in turbo size and pick up more topend is to go to a smaller turbo and utilize e85 or meth.

And as far as the "stock location" EFR turbos....they arent stock location. Its a rotated turbo...the turbo is just clocked the opposite direction to go under the intake manifold. You cant run them with a stock flanged subaru up or dp.

And companies arent retarded.....thats why all there testing is done by giving turbos/parts to shops with dynojets or dynapacks. My guesstimation based on yimi's dynojet numbers of the largest "stock location" efr is that it will make ~380-400whp on airboy on e85 and 300-320whp on 91. From there its up to the end user to decide if $3500 is worth that extra 400-500rpm of powerband down low. And to know that they cant easily upgrade past that point without getting a new rotated kit that rotates their bigger offerings in the normal direction.

Heres a "stock location" gt35 (ITS 60-1) i had in 2003. turbo was just clocked so that the intake was facing under the manifold.


Last edited by Phatron; 10-02-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
From there its up to the end user to decide if $3500 is worth that extra 400-500rpm of powerband down low.
FYI, when I PMed that vendor that posted in the Yimi testing Full-Race EFR thread, the number I got was a lot lower than the $3500ish number on the Full-Race site. I was pretty floored when I saw the FR site number a week later.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:51 PM   #108
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I am well aware. I am a vendor sometimes
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:14 AM   #109
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I figured you were aware, but not everyone reading here is. I was aware there were "PM prices" from vendors, but I was just surprised at the magnitude of the difference.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post

I have the 20G XTR, which is very similar to the Dom 1.5XTR. Boost comes on considerably later than a VF (~600rpm's), but the low/mid range torque really isn't that far behind. But, since I run mine at much higher boost, I get a really strong midrange torque peak, and the top end holds on reasonably well. If I had the same spool, but only was making low/mid 300's WHP (ie. pump gas and 20psi), then I don't think I'd be very happy with the setup.
Ben... you're killing me!

But, of course you're right. I'm on the 20GXTR and 93. On a cold day (yeah winter! can't come soon enough), I could probably make 350 on the dynapack I was tuned on @ 21.5 psi. So yeah, she pulls a bit harder than stock, but the "extra" you buy isn't neck breaking. The major trade is sustained power vs slower spool; just as we have all said about both the 1.5 and 20Gs.

It's substantially harder to drive aggressive IMO, you have to really watch the power band or get punished severely for missing it; where the VF was pretty forgiving. The turbo makes a ton of sense above legal highway speeds (not that I would know ) and not so much for autoX style driving.

So... it's meth for me too, hopefully by Christmas, as it seems that E85 will never make it my way.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:14 PM   #111
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couple more you all should find interesting.

dom1.5 pump vs dom1.5 e85 v dom2.5 e85




dom1.5 e85 boost v dom2.5 e85 boost (boost plots from hp/tq graph above)

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Old 10-05-2012, 03:41 PM   #112
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How can you use Airboy to compare powerbands when there is so much smoothing that everything just looks like straight lines? Or, at best, extremely smooth, barely curved lines? If you just keep turning up the smoothing, then every turbo looks like it's going up, up and away at redline (and the further you turn up the smoothing, the higher the peak power numbers end up being).

I much, much prefer an actual dyno when trying to compare this kind of thing. But the Virtual Dyno program does a much better job at resolving an actual powerband than Airboy does. This is just my opinion, but I have a very hard time drawing any conclusion from such an over-smoothed plot. Also, I'm guessing that these plots are from different setups. It would be good to know what the differences are (motor, gearing, intercooler, fuel, ambient temps, etc).
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #113
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smoothing is on 5.....

2007 WRX 65mm DW750 Dom15xtr TMIC EBCS EXT 93 Oct - IAT 95, 3rd gear

2009 WRX Dom15xtr10 DW1000 KS73 FMIC TGV AirP Ext MBC E85 - IAT 97, 3rd gear

2007 WRX 2.5xtr 5-01200cc 80mm MAF FMIC UEL Dualwalbro MBC+EBCS e85 - IAT 60, 05 STi 6 speed 3rd gear

its by no means a perfect comparo. I do the best i can with the tools i have. i can just take them down if they arent useful.

if the 2.5xtr spools 100-200rpm slower at 95*....whoopty dooo. there is still no reason to use the 1.5xtr. look at the delta between the plots.

Last edited by Phatron; 10-05-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #114
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Honestly I think you can find plots on any of these turbos that make one or the other look better. If you look at this one, it makes it seem like the bigger turbo is a ridiculous choice for this power level.

http://accessecu.com/dyno/graph.php?...rgb2=204000000

I think people just expect way too much out of the Dom 1.5XTR at 20-22psi of boost. It really doesn't make all that much power at that level, and the spool isn't all that much better than a 30R.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:08 PM   #115
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you have a dom3xtr in that plot....not a 2.5xtr.

but yes, running a dom3 out to 6600rpm at 21psi on e85 is a pointless waste of a setup. if it was taken out to 7600 at 26psi and you enjoyed the extra power...then you can justify it. but the way thats setup is a waste....he was most likely out of fuel pump or injector adn they called it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:12 PM   #116
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Yeah, it turns out the 2.5XTR plots are a little hard to find on EFI or COBB's databases. My point was basically exactly what you said. A bigger turbo at 20-22psi and a stock redline is pretty pointless. But there are many people that only want to run 20-22psi and a stock redline, so (IMO) they're often better suited for the smaller turbo that will be more responsive.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #117
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i am so glad this thread was revived and really took off! A lot of good discussion here with lots of useful info!

I think my findings are summed up nicely by Ron and xluben:
The power delivery of the 1.5 vs VF is smoother and more friendly.
the powerband is less forgiving than a VF as if your not in it your not in it
the power gained by running low boost is not worth the tradeoff of no midrange for slightly more topend.
to make this turbo, or any large turbo worth the tradeoff in midrange, you really have to run high boost. And the only way to do that is meth or e85
i dont think any big turbo should be run without alky of some kind, following this logic.
i jumped the gun and ordered parts before talking to my tuner and now im paying the price.

for me personally, i will be getting meth before i do anything. from there i can either see what the 1.5 will do. go to the 10cm 2.5 if i want top end. or go down to an 18gxt and run high boost and get good midrange, with high boost on meth.


as i am still on stock block, personally going to a large turbo was kind of moot. i cant really push any large turbo to get the most out of it without fear of my block going. i dont think i have an easy way out of my situation without spending a ton of money, but we all knew that from the beginning lol


hypothetically lets say my goal is 350 whp/wtq on stock block. would the 2.5xtr be overkill for this power level? with all the discussion about it not being worth it unless high boost iis run, it seems this turbo is more of 400-450 range. perhaps i would be better of running meth on an 18g? i really dont know what to do at this point

Last edited by 07VTRex; 10-05-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:06 PM   #118
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just get a FP RED, run e85, get a dyno tune and enjoy the power.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:17 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07VTRex View Post
hypothetically lets say my goal is 350 whp/wtq on stock block. would the 2.5xtr be overkill for this power level? with all the discussion about it not being worth it unless high boost iis run, it seems this turbo is more of 400-450 range. perhaps i would be better of running meth on an 18g? i really dont know what to do at this point
You're not going to make 350whp on an 18g....unless you use e85.

The last 18gxtr I did on a 2.5L made 275whp

You're not going to put on a smaller turbo and make more power than you are now. You need a bigger turbo to hit 350 on the road dyno, or e85. Even with meth you may not do it. Maybe if you use an aquamist kit with dual nozzles.

If you guys are wanting to use small turbos to make big numbers you need an Omni 3 bar MAP sensor to be able to run higher boost than 20-21psi. you need at least a 70mm intake. and you need e85 or meth. And when you start push high boost, then a fmic is a good idea too. if you utilize e85....you'll need injectors

Last edited by Phatron; 10-07-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:01 PM   #120
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Really ??? if you were to run your FXT over the scales and then Run the STi over the
scales right behind you ..... Youd see were your car length came from real quick. 4 cylinder engines are pretty sensitive to extra wt. And your pushing alot more wind than the STi is also. That all adds up real fast. It makes total sence that STi pulled you out of the gate.
And the faster you go ??? the worse its going to get for you. Just sayin. The tune is probably just fine. Here's an example of wind and weight and what a difference it makes.
This is first hand. My 67 Camaro ran 10.0 with a pretty good running 355 small block chev. In it. I took the same engine and put it in my rear engine dragster. Right out of the box I ran an 8.10. Almost 2 seconds quicker in the qtr mile with the same engine.I lost
over 1000 lbs in wt and lost all that wind resistance. When from 123 mph to 168 mph all with the same engine. So weight and wind are everything as far as cars and engines are concernd.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:36 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
couple more you all should find interesting.

dom1.5 pump vs dom1.5 e85 v dom2.5 e85




dom1.5 e85 boost v dom2.5 e85 boost (boost plots from hp/tq graph above)

Very interesting Thank you for putting this up. The results make sense, but its good to see quantifiable data.

The killer with any of these turbos is trying to use them on straight pump, and stock MAP sensor, there is a lot left on the table. But straight pump gas is what most people should be running, just because of the simplicity.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:00 PM   #122
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[quote=Dirtrace95;38216599]Really ??? if you were to run your FXT over the scales and then Run the STi over the
scales right behind you ..... Youd see were your car length came from real quick. 4 cylinder engines are pretty sensitive to extra wt. /QUOTE]

An SG FXT is lighter dude due to the 5MT !

2007 XT Limited 5MT

Curve Weight per factory manual: 3,263 lb (unknown how much gas Subaru includes in this measurement)
Cat Scale after below modifications: 3,180 lb (1/4 tank)
For reference 2012 STI Hatch: 3,373 lb

Removed rear bench
Removed arm rest hinged cup holder, heavy mofo is 5 lb
Swapped stock battery to 15 lb Odyssey PC680
Swapped stock Geolander 215/55 to lightweight 215/45 Federal 595RS-R
Swapped Limited to Sports front end, no more fog lights
Swapped stock TBE to 3" thin wall lightweight SS304 system
Added heavier WL sways front and back





180 lb to go....

Last edited by V8 GTFO Lesbic WGN; 10-13-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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