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Old 10-04-2012, 06:33 PM   #1126
HipToBeSquare
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Reducing the number of potential combinations between major items lowers manufacturing costs and simplifies inventory management (which also helps lower cost). Dealers have an easier time selling the cars as well, because they have less of a chance getting stuck with a combination no one wants. Plus they don't have to deal with the customer saying "Oh well I like this car... But can you get one with a black interior from 300 miles away and bring it here?"

Fact is while I wanted a white Impreza with a black interior, it wasn't available and I just bought a different color. I am glad to see Subaru is opening up on the color options a bit on the Legacy (just for blue and red), but I don't expect to see that across all exterior colors.

If I could roll my own Subaru, I would be driving a white/black XV Crosstrek 2.5L with a 6 speed and the H/K audio package from the Legacy
They are supposed to be selling a car to the consumer, not forcing a car down a consumer's throat.

The "my way or the highway" attitude gets really tiresome, really fast, and is off-putting, and a reason for people to go look at another brand.

I wouldn't look at a new Legacy right now, it just isn't compelling... and the good looking new Fusion offers AWD. Not that much different than the CVT-AWD that most Legacys are pushing, and the rest of the Fusion's plusses might outweigh the VTD advantage in the H6 Legacy 5EAT.

Certainly the looks do.

I can see your argument about increased costs, when talking about adding more than two or three drivetrain options. or more other high-cost components.

But there is not much cost differential between a black door card, or a taupe door card. a black seat or a taupe seat. Black carpet or a tan carpet, etc.... it isn't as if the car goes WITHOUT a part based on which option is chosen.

And lean manufacturing this day and age makes it possible to order components from sub-assemblers and suppliers in relatively short notice.

Canada evidently offers more choice. Australia and Europe might, also. I am not sure.

It seems like SOA just doesn't want to bother giving people a choice that almost EVERY other brand on the market offers... the choice to pick your paint color, and your interior color, and sometimes even individually choose between cloth and leather without having to spend a bunch of money on other packaged options.

And a few small dollars per unit produced, in terms of variable costs... (if not cents per unit differential cost, in the case of offering an interior color choice), it isn't worth generating customer ill-will. Certainly when most customers don't worry about a dollar value under 100$ or so, when negotiating on a new vehicle that costs tens of thousands. Even if interior color choices added 25$ per unit RETAIL, just for the ability to have *the choice* between some tan parts vs the same parts in black that cost the same amount of money to fabricate, assemble, and install, either-or.

(I have a feeling is likely a GENEROUS estimate to cover the cost of just having the choice, which other companies already offer at competitive prices) do you think someone is going to be upset about a ~25,000 dollar purchase, over the matter of 25$? Hell no.


All it seems to do is make SOA's inventory system a little easier, and allows them to tell the customer to pound sand if they want something like a black interior instead of tan, with a specific paint color.

As a prospective customer who might actually want to spend some of my money with that company at some point, I don't respond well to being told to pound sand, especially over something so EASY.

It isn't as if an interior color choice requires re-federalization like offering another engine choice might. (but really shouldn't if there were type certification like other countries.)

You can't quantify how many people buy Escapes or CX5s, or RAV4s, or CR-Vs, or whatever, compared to have been willing to buy a Forester, if they could have gotten the color they preferred. Or Legacy vs. other sedans... or Outbacks vs. other mid-large CUVs.

They get decent sales numbers... and maybe even increases over previous sales numbers... but what if an interior color choice, or some other option configuration could have actually made a BIGGER increase than the increase they saw, and the revenue would have more than covered the slight increase in variable costs, and actually been a few dollars of even more profit?

It is just as much of a lie for subaru to claim saved money by less options, as the government counting "saved" jobs, that are un-quantifiable, because you don't know for sure what would have otherwise happened, alternate to what didn't happen.

It is static thinking, rather than dynamic thinking. It saves a dollar to not have the choice on the list. But what if that choice would have sold even more units, and generated enough revenue to cover that dollar, and add maybe another dollar in profit? is it worth the dollar saved, then, to have lost two that you can't quantify because it wasn't spent, and went to one of your competitors instead, or someone just held on to their old car a bit longer because they weren't motivated to buy a car they didn't entirely like enough to take that step?
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Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-04-2012 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:54 PM   #1127
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They are supposed to be selling a car to the consumer, not forcing a car down a consumer's throat.

The "my way or the highway" attitude gets really tiresome, really fast, and is off-putting, and a reason for people to go look at another brand.

I wouldn't look at a new Legacy right now, it just isn't compelling... and the good looking new Fusion offers AWD. Not that much different than the CVT-AWD that most Legacys are pushing, and the rest of the Fusion's plusses might outweigh the VTD advantage in the H6 Legacy 5EAT.
To get a Fusion with AWD you need to get the Titanium trim level and then pay and extra $2K for the AWD. The base MSRP of that configuration is over $32K, well over $10K more than where the Legacy starts. I don't think a lot of people looking at a Legacy are going to go, "Gee, its only another $12,000, I should go check out a Fusion AWD!" And at that point, you are only $1 away from getting an Audi A4 AWD or another luxury car, so why is someone getting a Fusion?

Anyway people can buy what they want, Subaru certainly isn't forcing people to buy their cars. Offering people good choices is more important than offering people a vast array of choices and options. Subaru manages to sell AWD cars for lower prices than many competitors sell FWD cars, they need to trim costs to remain competitive. If some colors and options get trashed, so be it.

Last edited by ocellaris; 10-04-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:34 PM   #1128
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Compared to a Legacy GT Limited that no longer exists?

I wasn't considering a base, no-option 2.5i Legacy before, I don't know why I would consider it now.

Competing is not just keeping costs to a bare minimum, it is about offering more VALUE than the other guy.

A car that isn't compelling is immediately at a value deficit compared to any other car that does seem compelling to any given customer.

People sell higher priced items, with HIGHER VALUE margin than the price increase margin, every day.

Why do you think I bought a Legacy GT Limited over a Mazdaspeed 6, or an A4 Quattro?

It was a better VALUE than the Audi, and the better, permanent AWD, and aftermarket ECU software upgrade support also made it a better value to me particularly than the Mazdaspeed also.

By the time I flew to Burlington VT, and paid the full sales price tax rate, instead of a trade-in, and drove the car home half-way across the country, and fixed the droning exhaust that the previous owner had on the car... I spent slightly more than if I had traded in my ranger for a brand new Legacy GT, or Mazdaspeed6 at my local Subaru/Mazda dealer, and only paid sales tax on the price difference, and perhaps would have gotten a better interest rate on a new car, vs. a used one.

But Subaru didn't have any Garnet red or Regal blue cars, with black Limited leather interior, and 5-speed manual gearbox, within 500 miles, and they treated me like I should pound sand for wanting what I wanted.

I spent 2 years preparing, and more than 6 months combing every subaru dealership in 4 states within a 200 mile radius, and checking internet inventories out to 500+ miles.

I don't just cave in on my preference after that much preparation, on a car I knew I would, and have owned for 5 years now, and likely at least one more, if this economy continues to suck. I didn't know then that it would be the LAST truly compelling Subaru. All the new ones have significant deficits, from lack of manual gearboxes, to lack of power output, to WRX and STI barely ever offering Limited trim, and being as ugly as ever, to just plain being cancelled like the OBXT and now LGT also.

So be it, says you, and evidently SOA.

Screw you Subaru, says someone else, and Subaru doesn't get their sale. How competitive is that?

Almost anybody else would have simply bought the Mazdaspeed 6 (Velocity Red Mica with black leather interior sure was pretty... glad after the fact that I didn't have to deal with the engine coking up as the DISI engines tended to), or the more expensive, less powerful A4 Quattro. I bought used, and gave a Legacy GT forum member a fair price on the car he was trying to sell, instead.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-04-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:05 PM   #1129
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Subaru resale value has to be considered. Sure the Fusion might offer more value up front but Subaru's resale value in the future will be higher. So which value actually matters?
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:17 PM   #1130
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Hip, if they did not have one, what would you have them do? If they did not have a garnet red legacy GT with the black leather, they do not have one. How did they treat you like you should go pound sand? I am not sure I understand the source of your frustration.

It would seem you are just reaping the consequences of your own pickiness. I think the greatest source of your frustration is not subaru, or audi, or ford, or VW, or anybody else. I think the biggest source of your automotive malaise is you.

I think you need to start with the man in the mirror...







...Sha mon!!...

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Old 10-04-2012, 08:30 PM   #1131
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I thought that before.

Yet my rare Legacy GT Limited, is not as high a resale-value as I had hoped then.

Perhaps with a very high demand Subaru, like Forester or mainstream Outback models (not likely considering Outback XT), the resale value may stay high...

But have you seen the price of used, low-mileage CR-Vs, or Ford Escapes lately? I have, as I look around, and compare them to Forester.

At least just as high. Almost anything under 4 years or 60K miles is over $20K in that segment... and the common mainstream players are not significantly less expensive than Foresters, if you can find a used one that stays in inventory. Foresters do seem to be rarer, but not noteably more expensive, 'pound for pound' so to speak.

Almost all popular-segment used cars have been high priced, since cash-4-clunkers took a lot of the lower-priced used cars off the road, and pushed people into new cars, that are now coming off of leases and getting traded in by their first round of owners.

Foresters and Outbacks may retain their value well, but lots of other used cars are retaining higher prices, too.

Plus the Fusion's aesthetic appeal may make it an attractive, easy to sell used car down the road, too. Legacy doesn't have that going for it, and Legacys don't hold their value as well as Outbacks and Foresters do. Tribecas also depreciate faster due to less popularity.

A Tribeca and a Forester of the same mileage and year are much closer in price on the used market than they EVER were in sticker price.

The VTD, H6 power output, interior amenities, and smooth looks (08+) at nearly the same price as a decent Forester 2.5X Limited... I would buy the Tribeca for roughly the same money. The only down-side is the added weight.... offset by the significantly higher tow rating.

The thing that keeps me looking at Forester, is the availability of a manual gearbox, but that is rare. A WRX-spec Forester XT with more than 250hp, and a stick would change the game.

Outback is too ugly to consider anymore.

If I can't get a slick AWD sport coupe as a daily driver and road trip car, and an old beater SUV as backup and cargo hauler... the SUV gets promoted to front-line, and has to be the daily driver, and the road-trip vehicle, and the cargo hauler when needed, which means not ultra-spartan, and not sluggish to drive, and ready for 100K+ miles of everything I drive through.

I wish Subaru offered something truly compelling in that category, not just acceptable to most appliance buyers, who could choose to buy any appliance from any brand on the market.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:33 PM   #1132
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HTBS, how is it that you have time to write 500 word essays for every post. I don't think anyone actually reads them. I sure dont't. My limit is a few sentences.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:39 PM   #1133
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Hip, if they did not have one, what would you have them do? If they did have a garnet red legacy GT with the black leather, they do not have one. How did they treat you like you should go pound sand? I am not sure I understand the source of your frustration.

It would seem you are just reaping the consequences of your own pickiness. I think the greatest source of your frustration is not subaru, or audi, or ford, or VW, or anybody else. I think the biggest source of your automotive malaise is you.

I think you need to start with the man in the mirror...

...Sha mon!!...
That was when Legacy GTs were NEW. Why should a customer be denied a car that can be built in the factory.

I wasn't expecting a used car to be configured to my taste, I had to travel to find a used car that already was configured to my taste, and that was easier than getting a new car built in an indiana factory to those three points.
-A color paintjob, not grayscale. The midwest is too bleak in the winter to have a greyscale car.
-A black leather interior. I don't want taupe or cloth, and i wanted the sunroof with the limited package.
-A manual gearbox.

That is not too much to ask.

Evidently, now even a Turbocharged Legacy AT ALL, is too much to ask. Or a Forester XT with more power and a stick. Or an XV with power... period.

Or one's choice of a subaru model in their preferred color and interior color together on one car. That is not too much to ask for. I can't believe the permissiveness of justifying that just to save a very small amount... when it likely costs Subaru revenue potential, rather than saving them money.

And Dealers that are un-helpful, dismissive, and refuse to put an effort into helping someone who wants to spend money, is RIDICULOUS.

Just as ridiculous as a car company that refuses to allow customers to get a reasonable combination of the options and colors they want.

They customer may not be ALWAYS right... but operating on the premise that they ALMOST always are right to want what they want, and it is THEIR money that they are spending with you, is better business policy, and better customer relations.

It is Subaru's priviledge to be profitable selling cars to willing customers who want to spend their money to get the car they want.

It is not a customers's privilege to make Subaru profitable by buying whatever Subaru deigns to produce, or SOA deigns to allow to be ordered.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:17 PM   #1134
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HTBS, how is it that you have time to write 500 word essays for every post. I don't think anyone actually reads them. I sure dont't. My limit is a few sentences.
Awwww... Don't be like that. I read 'em. Actually, I read them backwards. Meaning I read the last sentence first to see how badly I want to read the rest of it. Scouts honor.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:14 PM   #1135
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Dealer a block away got a white one in today. Saw it as I was driving by on my way home tonight. Stopped, turned around. Walked around it for a good 15 min.

I like it. However, the back/hatch might be a bit too small for my dog.

--kC
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:02 AM   #1136
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Do we think XV will hit claimed fuel economy?
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:07 AM   #1137
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Provided you keep your foot out of it. For reference I just averaged 30.85 mpg on my 05 Saab 9-2x Aero over a 700 mile trip. Trip up was 28.5 mpg and trip back was 33.2. I set the cruise at 65 and that was it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:00 AM   #1138
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They are supposed to be selling a car to the consumer, not forcing a car down a consumer's throat.

The "my way or the highway" attitude gets really tiresome, really fast, and is off-putting, and a reason for people to go look at another brand.
Yet, they are setting records month after month. I agree with you 100% but understand why when it comes to cost. There are LOADS of things I want SOA to do, but would make the cost go up. I have a very thick accessory book I got from a Japanese dealer while I was over there that have just the coolest things; and yet, our brochure is a quick accordian style with a couple handfuls of products.

I am pretty sure the majority of manufacturers that most of us could afford have some "my way or the highway" trims. Fusion AWD Platinum only?


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How exactly does a car like that happen? I have always wanted a white exterior with black interior, but no go from Subaru. Where does this unicorn come from??
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I think someone showed a picture that Canada gets white exterior, black interior Subies, so maybe a mix up there with a Canadian-purposed vehicle?

This is what I was thinking.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:51 AM   #1139
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Do we think XV will hit claimed fuel economy?
No way unless you drive it very, very, slow. It seems the 2.0 FB sucks the fuel down if driven a tad aggressive. It's not hard to do with only 148hp
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:39 AM   #1140
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No way unless you drive it very, very, slow. It seems the 2.0 FB sucks the fuel down if driven a tad aggressive. It's not hard to do with only 148hp

My wife and I have done pretty good matching or beating the stated mpg's on our Impreza Sport. But we don't have the added 90lbs or increased ride height the XV has.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #1141
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They are supposed to be selling a car to the consumer, not forcing a car down a consumer's throat.

The "my way or the highway" attitude gets really tiresome, really fast, and is off-putting, and a reason for people to go look at another brand.
That's how Subaru designed cars in the past. Ikuo Mori stated several years ago that Subaru engineers would do what they wanted and put it on the market and hope it sold.

Subaru's current strategy is the exact OPPOSITE of that. It's even more disgusting to read what you just wrote when every dissertation you right is full of "...won't build me..." and "I want..." Your way of thinking is the opposite of a market driven approach and you only care about getting what you want. Any product development department and CEO knows you can't design product for yourself and hope it appeals to enough people to float the bill.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:40 PM   #1142
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My wife and I have done pretty good matching or beating the stated mpg's on our Impreza Sport. But we don't have the added 90lbs or increased ride height the XV has.
However XV's fuel economy is already 3 mpg's lower than Impreza's due to this.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:24 PM   #1143
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HTBS, how is it that you have time to write 500 word essays for every post. I don't think anyone actually reads them. I sure dont't. My limit is a few sentences.
When you type as fast as I do, 500 words takes about 4-6 minutes. Not that long. Not everybody hunts and pecks on a keyboard.

And I don't care in the least if you read them or not, or the limits you place on your own expression. You do what you wanna do.

People other than you can choose to read them or ignore them.

I hope people with an attitude for discussion, rather than just arguing about other people's post lengths, will read them, and discuss the various points...

I thought that is what a discussion forum was for.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:52 PM   #1144
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However XV's fuel economy is already 3 mpg's lower than Impreza's due to this.
For sure. I was replying to "No way unless you drive it very, very, slow" which is not what we have experiened with our Subaru.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #1145
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Well 65 isn't slow so... And lately I've actually been content with keeping my car below 2500 rpm and cruising at 65. I think if a person drives reasonably there shouldn't be any reason the 33 mpg can't be achieved. You wouldn't drive slow but you wouldn't be hauling @ss either.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #1146
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I hope people with an attitude for discussion, rather than just arguing about other people's post lengths, will read them, and discuss the various points...

I thought that is what a discussion forum was for.
the issue is you don't tend to be very good at discussing, no offense. You re-hash the same arguments. Over and over. Write the same essay replies. Why not try to be more concise with your replies? That should be possible, no?
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:59 PM   #1147
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the issue is you don't tend to be very good at discussing, no offense. You re-hash the same arguments. Over and over. Write the same essay replies. Why not try to be more concise with your replies? That should be possible, no?
It really depends on the subject. He did really well with the discussion about Toyota engines before since someone was teaching him the tech and it was something he was interested in learning.

The XV is obviously not meant for the enthusiast crowd, but even on paper it just seems a bit underwhelming. It looks really good, though. I think it'll have no problem reaching the advertised MPG ratings.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:52 PM   #1148
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Slap a direct-injected 2.0L in the Crosstrek to give it a slight boost in pep and it would be mine. I just can't justify one right now due to its power plant... I love almost everything about the Crosstrek save the engine..
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:10 PM   #1149
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I will never understand why they made this car it's own model. It looks identical to the 2012 Impreza outside of the ride height, same powertrain. XV Impreza anyone?

I'm not even saying that it's a bad car but as it sits at the very least it's name should be Outback\Impreza Sport.

Building a car to look more rugged the giving an underpowered engine makes about as much sense as a spoiler on pickup!

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Old 10-05-2012, 05:39 PM   #1150
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It's not underpowered just adequately powered. Fo 99.9% of the world it will suffice just fine. And there are enough aesthetic differences to set it apart. I find the front end treatment much more appealing than Impreza's.
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