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Old 10-09-2012, 03:02 AM   #1
OC_Nooby
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Default STI 2.5L, ATP GT3076R ~12psi, 94 Octane. Timing Map/Fuel Map How Do They Look?

Peak Engine load is around 4800-5200rpm with a 2.8 load. I'm thinking I should richen it slightly at peak. Thoughts? Comments? I don't have AVCS, controlling the motor with a 03 WRX ECU.



Rev 1: more fuel, 2 less timing from 1.86 to 4.



Rev 2, less timing at redline.

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Last edited by OC_Nooby; 10-09-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:59 AM   #2
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you could richen it slightly for safety but if your max load is 2.8 why don't you rescale your tables to get a better resolution for tuning?
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:42 AM   #3
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He will be hitting higher loads when he turns up the boost. I have my tables scaled out to 4.0 but I just noticed it touching 4.0 in a log the other day... I need more headroom.

It looks to me like like 4-5 degrees too much timing at high load, and that's not even including the advance table... I'm guessing that table probably adds a few more degrees beyond what's in the base timing table - am I right? If so, you should turn it down a bunch.

My current fueling and timing tables:
http://i50.tinypic.com/33njatv.png

Note that in WOT pulls I'm actually getting more like 11.0 rather than the 11.2 shown in the table.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:09 AM   #4
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Depending on how much is being added in the advance table, this may be a little more timing then I would run.

However, you would probably be alright after a revision or 2 if you run low boost. If you add somthing like 8-10 degrees across the board like some do in the advance table you are running a lot of timing for anything over 12 psi. With that turbo I would imagine the sweet spot being near 20 for a stock block/internals. But you would need to drop timing for this and scale out load.

Looking at the second picture from nsfw it seems like hes running very conservative timing(maybe 91 octane?), but at the loads hes hitting hes in a good area, and gives you an idea of just how aggressive OP's timing will be when boost goes up.

One thing to note, NSFW has avcs, while the OP doesnt. I am sure this will have an effect on lower rpm timing, but even at redline OP's timing is high.

Last edited by endrswrd; 10-09-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:57 PM   #5
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Nothing is added in the advance table.

Should I take out the same amount of timing from 1.86 - 4 load?. I added 2 degrees last night before posting this in that range. That's when I had around 15ish at peak power.

Yes I'm only running 12 psi for now. Goal is 22-25 psi later on with Meth. I just want to make sure I hit my A/F first before adding meth (I know adding meth will throw the A/F table off).

Updated Table: Rev 1

Last edited by OC_Nooby; 10-09-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:21 PM   #6
endrswrd
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Looks better. At least at 100% throttle and high loads you look to be targeting something a little higher than a typical 93 octane. With 94 octane fuel and meth I would think this isnt as aggressive.

Question? Why do you use a zeroed out advance map and do all your tuning on the base map? You are removing the ECUs ability to pull timing across the board(depending on how it is used) due to knock. Not to say that you wont still have a margin of safety, it is just diminished.

One thing to note you could always split the maps up and use the timing editor tool that is on the romraider forums. If you use the editor correctly, it can be used to edit one of the maps without effecting total timing, also is great for smoothing out timing by visually seeing the lines that are followed.

Fuel map looks good though. I would imagine if you are still working on fueling I would do it with the injector parameters.

Also,

Did you get the wrx heads machined to the 2.5l block, or did you just run an sti motor without avcs hooked up. If the latter, I would try and get a JDM STi ECU and add in the avcs. You are leaving low end torque and spool on the table without avcs.

Last edited by endrswrd; 10-09-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endrswrd View Post
Looks better. At least at 100% throttle and high loads you look to be targeting something a little higher than a typical 93 octane. With 94 octane fuel and meth I would think this isnt as aggressive.

Question? Why do you use a zeroed out advance map and do all your tuning on the base map? You are removing the ECUs ability to pull timing across the board(depending on how it is used) due to knock. Not to say that you wont still have a margin of safety, it is just diminished.

One thing to note you could always split the maps up and use the timing editor tool that is on the romraider forums. If you use the editor correctly, it can be used to edit one of the maps without effecting total timing, also is great for smoothing out timing by visually seeing the lines that are followed.

Fuel map looks good though. I would imagine if you are still working on fueling I would do it with the injector parameters.

Also,

Did you get the wrx heads machined to the 2.5l block, or did you just run an sti motor without avcs hooked up. If the latter, I would try and get a JDM STi ECU and add in the avcs. You are leaving low end torque and spool on the table without avcs.
Right now, no Meth. Just 94 Octane. Its a full STI motor forged internals. My motor is super loud. I can't use a knock sensor or it will pull 8 degrees of timing and then some. I used det cans back then to make sure I wasn't knocking (I wasn't).

I used the base timing because I could visualize it a lot better. Instead of adding this to this. My plan is, to run this map if you guys deem it safe @ wastegate boost (12-14psi). Then up the boost by ~2psi, scale my MAF. Rinse and repeat. Once I hit 20 PSi add meth. Retain the same timing table (even if its super safe). Then when I dyno I can add timing and see how power goes up. Though honestly, I probably don't need Meth at 20-22psi.

I can use a JDM STI (2.0L I assume) ECU on my WRX wire harness? I want AVCS

Would you suggest another degree removed just for safety?
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:04 PM   #8
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Yeah I would target 18-19 degrees at redline and start from there. Yeah you can use the v7/v8 ecu on your exisiting wrx harness, then add in the avcs stuff like you would on a JDM 207 swap. Or at least, It should work like this. The jdm avcs may be different than the usdm avcs which may require some changes be made to the setup, but i would imagine it has been done before!

hopefully somebody else with more knowledge than I will chime in on this.

I understand the visualization idea, but its moot if you have to disable your knock sensor anyways.

Meth is good for safety, I certainly would want to find my MBT prior to adding meth, and then use meth as a safety net. The procedure you described is going to find MBT with meth raising octane levels which can be dangerous if you run out of meth without a good failsafe. So basically you need to do all your tuning with no meth, hit your MBT, back off a little, then add meth and redo fueling to take in the meth. At this point you should be done(at least for the time being)
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:11 PM   #9
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I'll look into the JDM ecu!

So peak timing is good, you suggest lowering timing at redline and tapper it down a tad?

Rev 2 for timing added.

Last edited by OC_Nooby; 10-09-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:32 PM   #10
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Yeah that looks like a good starting point. I would also note there are differences in the usdm avcs vs jdm avcs. I believe there is more timing retard range in the jdm version (45degrees) vs usdm (30 degrees), but like all things do your research!!!

Last edited by endrswrd; 10-09-2012 at 02:32 PM. Reason: fix words
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endrswrd View Post
Yeah that looks like a good starting point. I would also note there are differences in the usdm avcs vs jdm avcs. I believe there is more timing retard range in the jdm version (45degrees) vs usdm (30 degrees), but like all things do your research!!!
Apparently the v7 JDM ecu plugs in. I have the AVCS wiring so its not going to be hard for me to wire AVCS (STI harness sitting in my garage). I would just transfer the STI AVCS parameters into it. Prolly not as advanced though (anything will increase power ahah). I'll make a thread and confirm with fellow NASIOCers.

Thanks for giving me this idea. Appreciate your help too! As well as everyone who contributed in this thread!

Id like to get more input on my timing/fuel map. The more the merrier!
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:42 PM   #12
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These were my plans with my wagon(wrx) to do a full STi swap and wire it up with a jdm wrx ecu. but I decided to just buy a stock GD STi instead! Well, havent purchased yet, but I get the compression/leakdown numbers back today which will confirm or deny my purchase!!!
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endrswrd View Post
These were my plans with my wagon(wrx) to do a full STi swap and wire it up with a jdm wrx ecu. but I decided to just buy a stock GD STi instead! Well, havent purchased yet, but I get the compression/leakdown numbers back today which will confirm or deny my purchase!!!
Fingers crossed!
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:51 PM   #14
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Just curious. Where are you from that you can get consistent 94 octane?
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endrswrd View Post
Looking at the second picture from nsfw it seems like hes running very conservative timing(maybe 91 octane?), but at the loads hes hitting hes in a good area, and gives you an idea of just how aggressive OP's timing will be when boost goes up.

One thing to note, NSFW has avcs, while the OP doesnt. I am sure this will have an effect on lower rpm timing, but even at redline OP's timing is high.
I run 92 octane, but I'm still on a stock longblock. I could probably afford to run another degree or three, but I don't want to push it.

AVCS is 25 degrees at 2400, tapering to 0 degrees at 4800.

The latest tables seem pretty reasonable. I'd subtract 2 degrees across the board, do a couple pulls, verify it's not knocking, then try the tables shown. Then again, with your forged pistons, you can probably afford to be less cautious then me.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Just curious. Where are you from that you can get consistent 94 octane?
Canada, Ontario.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I run 92 octane, but I'm still on a stock longblock. I could probably afford to run another degree or three, but I don't want to push it.

AVCS is 25 degrees at 2400, tapering to 0 degrees at 4800.

The latest tables seem pretty reasonable. I'd subtract 2 degrees across the board, do a couple pulls, verify it's not knocking, then try the tables shown. Then again, with your forged pistons, you can probably afford to be less cautious then me.
Noted!

How much power are you making? TMIC or FMIC?
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:43 PM   #18
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Ok Tested the tune.

1st Gear 2.74 Load @ 5700 RPM 15.5 to 19
2nd Gear 2.85 Load @ 5300 RPM 14.5 to 18.5
3rd gear 2.87 Load @ 5500 RPM 14.5 to 19

My A/F where super rich 9-10ish so MAF scaling is required.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC_Nooby View Post
How much power are you making? TMIC or FMIC?
FMIC, 377whp on a dyno that reads about like a DynoJet.

A car that got dyno'd shortly after mine got 375, and then 395 after putting the hood up to get cooler air to the intake... next time, I'm putting my hood up too!

Also, I have a catted downpipe (Invidia, not stock ). Going catless would probably free up some power, but I'm a bit of a tree-hugger, and I'm content with the power that I have.

Last edited by NSFW; 10-10-2012 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
FMIC, 377whp on a dyno that reads about like a DynoJet.

A car that got dyno'd shortly after mine got 375, and then 395 after putting the hood up to get cooler air to the intake... next time, I'm putting my hood up too!

Also, I have a catted downpipe (Invidia, not stock ). Going catless would probably free up some power, but I'm a bit of a tree-hugger, and I'm content with the power that I have.
Nice, good to know!
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