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Old 10-08-2012, 11:58 PM   #76
Rampager2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k04sti View Post
It is a lot of power. Hell most of the people here with stock STi's can't even launch their car properly. Takes a lot to learn a car and to drive properly. Nonetheless a kid with only a learner's permit and this STi is probably his first car. Yes there are higher powered cars, but an STi is pretty damn fast.
Any cars that run 13', 14's in the 1/4 stock are too fast for a teens first car.

If the kid were in say a yaric accord or something else he wouldn't even have been able to get to 100mph nevertheless would he try because he knows his car is slow.
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
For some people, for whatever the reason, having the sporty "fast" car encourages them to do stupid things. I would have to agree that's the case for an average teen.

Maybe not for you, or for many others...but for your average HS kid. Sorry, Peer pressure, self stupidity, etc. often get the best of young people.
I don't entirely disagree. I do know my Sonata was fast enough there was a point in time where the only vehicle in the parking lot faster than me was some kids Civic Si who had done some silly tune to it and was a little riced. At that school, my car was considered a sporty car and I had peer pressure to go fast in it. I just didn't.

Like now, I would feel so bad if I killed someone. However, with my brother, I'll do a little spirited driving with him. He loves it, I make sure he buckles up, and I don't get stupid with it. At the same time, I'd rather set the example of showing the difference between driving like a complete asshat going 130 and squealing around turns, and hitting 80/90 down straights and slowing down enough you're just getting force pushing you. Stupid either way? Yeah. But one I feel entirely in control and the other I wouldn't.

People shouldn't be pinning this on age, though. How many videos are there on Youtube of guys in muscle cars/exotics that hit the gas around a turn and wrecked their lambo or something of the sort? Plenty. Like has been said, it's all about mindset. I feel this matters less about age and more about examples that have been given. Some 50 year olds just seem to have not grown up enough to be able to handle the cars.

I'm 18 and I honestly feel more responsible in my car than most elderly folks in the area with ratrods and all. They're constantly driving like ********, starting ****, road rage, going fast all the time.. You name it.

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Originally Posted by easterbran View Post
I completely agree with you. That's what I was talking about having the right mindset. Also, it's up to the parents in the end to determine if their kid is going to kill themselves in the car or not.
Exactly my point.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:58 AM   #77
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Looks like Darwin's theory is getting another -1.
Of all the traffic accident that I read about lately the drunk and/or stupid party survived. The casualty is always their own passenger or the passenger or the other vehicles.

Wonder how much will this affect the insurance rate for a wrx in that area.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:10 AM   #78
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Ugh this really sucks. Condolence to the family. Never know when your time comes. Can't take life for granted. Good to practice being good and true to love ones because you never know when if you'll miss the opportunity to see them again...
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:22 AM   #79
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Blame the family buying the 17 y/o young inexperienced guy with lerner permit a powerful car like this STI. They don't mix right. If it is with summer performance tires, even worse. A regular Impreza is more appropriate.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:58 AM   #80
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1) You can kill yourself, your passengers, and bystanders JUST as easily driving a 106hp Civic sedan.

2) Things happen MUCH quicker in a performance car; therefore, you get in over your head without realizing you're at that point.

3) Young drivers DO NOT need, nor can be trusted with performance cars because the temptation and peer pressure is far too great. It's bad enough with a slow car.

4) All young drivers should enroll in a SCCA sponsered Steet Survival course to fully understand the limits of a car.

5) You young pups don't know what slow is. Most of us 30-somethings and older had 80 to 110hp cars as our first rides. These cars did upper 16 and 17 second 1/4 miles and 10+ second 0-60s which was considered decently fast back in the 1990s. The fact that my kids will likely own a low 15 second car for their first car scares the crap out of me. I know how stupid we ALL were at 16. Thank God these cars will have stability control, ABS, and other crash safety features our tin can mid-1980s Hondas didn't have.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:03 AM   #81
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Blame the parents, nothing more to it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:16 AM   #82
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Oh joy. Its another increase for our insurance rates.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:57 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impressme WRX View Post
Looks like Darwin's theory is getting another -1.
Of all the traffic accident that I read about lately the drunk and/or stupid party survived. The casualty is always their own passenger or the passenger or the other vehicles.

Wonder how much will this affect the insurance rate for a wrx in that area.
sadly a wrx is already the most expensive car to insure in our area.

drove by the accident scene this morning, just as i suspected it was a pretty big up hill then a fairly sharp left bank, assuming he came up the hill hot and lost control
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:29 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post
I had a Hyundai Sonata before I got my 9-2x, a 200hp 2.7l V6 that had a 4 speed tranny in it.. I beat Sis and RSXs in straight lines to get an idea, it's not fast, but not slow.
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Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post
I don't entirely disagree. I do know my Sonata was fast enough there was a point in time where the only vehicle in the parking lot faster than me was some kids Civic Si who had done some silly tune to it and was a little riced. At that school, my car was considered a sporty car and I had peer pressure to go fast in it. I just didn't.
You say you didn't go fast in your Hyundai, yet you keep listing all the cars you were faster than and beat???? Yeah, if you had a wrx/sti I bet you wouldn't have gone "fast" in that either.

Doesn't matter how great of a driver a 16yr old kid is on a track...without stop lights, with a helmet, without speed limits, without normal traffic laws... they are still 16yrs old and make stupid decisions and fall into peer pressure easily. Kids drive dumb in any car, they can just do it faster in a wrx/sti.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:42 AM   #85
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I'd be alright with an 85mph speed governor on all cars. Hell, I'd be okay with a 65mph speed governor. Flame suit on.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:12 AM   #86
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FYI - Snow tires won't do any better on ice than any other tire except for studded. If there's ice on the road, avoid driving unless someone in your family is dying. It's not worth the risk.
You fail at the interwebs, you should never post again. It's been proven time and time again that winter tires stop MUCH MUCH shorter and get WAY WAY better traction on ice than summer or all season tires.

Last edited by s2ktosti; 10-09-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:18 AM   #87
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god thats horrible. Kids should not be allowed to drive cars like these for their first.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:41 AM   #88
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The problem is simply speed - at higher speeds it is easier to lose control especially on highways when the grass is about 4 -15 feet from you. Once you are off the road on wet grass with trees about 10 feet away you are absolutely at the mercy of physics and basically done. Braking and turning at high speed on grass will mean nothing. F1, Nascar, professional racers would be just as done on that grass. The difference is an experienced driver would know not to get into that situation. Unfortunately, for these kids they will never get the chance to be experienced drivers.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #89
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This reminds me of my neighbors kid. After I bought my 2004 STI back in well, 2004, the neighbors kid had to have one. The parents against what I told them, bought him a 2005 when he got his license. He wrecked it before he got out of our housing development. Punched the gas and lost control, went through a street sign, fence, and then then a tree. He was OK, the car was totaled with less than 10 miles on it.

Kids shouldn't be driving anything on the street with more than 180hp until they hit 21.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampager2000
All things considered, if I had a 16 year old kid getting a license right now I'd get them an STi.
Screw that I'm doing to my kid what my parents did to me. Here's a beater old station wagon. If you drive like a dumbass it's going to break on you and you won't have any car at all. Learn to drive in a commuter car. When you get experience you can buy your own nicer car, whatever "nicer" means to you. Why do parents spend 35k on their kids first car? How many of us screwed up and damaged our first car?
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Karpediem

You say you didn't go fast in your Hyundai, yet you keep listing all the cars you were faster than and beat???? Yeah, if you had a wrx/sti I bet you wouldn't have gone "fast" in that either.

Doesn't matter how great of a driver a 16yr old kid is on a track...without stop lights, with a helmet, without speed limits, without normal traffic laws... they are still 16yrs old and make stupid decisions and fall into peer pressure easily. Kids drive dumb in any car, they can just do it faster in a wrx/sti.
Just because i raced a few times doesnt mean i spent every minute of driving time gunning around turns and whatnot. I knew it had enough power to get me in trouble and i respected that.. nothing like torque steer in a first car.

Then again, even with all my spirited driving, my only wreck ever was at a light someone failing to yield. No tickets, no wrecks, nobody dead. I was lucky and was always smart about my driving habits, well, sort of.

You have to keep in mind how many people in this forum who have "highly modded cars" but never get on them. Ill be honest about what ive done, many here arent. I could have handled a wrx at 16 as 230hp isnt much more than 200 and its awd. Some kids cant even handle a 100hp econobox.

Im only defending young people from all the people bitching about a kid having an sti.

Then again, theres a difference between "listing all these cars i beat" and giving a reference of speed. Your reading comprehension skills need some work.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:22 AM   #92
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Then again, theres a difference between "listing all these cars i beat" and giving a reference of speed. Your reading comprehension skills need some work.
What's your definition of fast? Typically when someone says they raced and beat cars, they aren't racing up to 25mph. You need to learn how to not contradict yourself when you try to make a point.

Are there any actual parents here with a teenager that would give their kid a new sti?
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #93
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The big problem here is the parents. Yes, teenagers (most) are completely unskilled n idiotic behind the wheel. Everyone should know that. Lack of experience, both driving and in life, just the honest truth.
But so many parents try to tell themselves and everyone else that because their kid is a good student or a well-behaved child, that they'll be a great driver n everything will be fine. How do study skills or morals all have anything to do with driver experience? Exactly.
This kids parents are in part reliable for the deaths of these kids perhaps, if you wanna blame anything but their son's own stupidity. But ultimately, he could have done the same in a '90 Honda civic. Could have gone just as fast, and it would have come apart even more.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:25 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post
Just because i raced a few times doesnt mean i spent every minute of driving time gunning around turns and whatnot. I knew it had enough power to get me in trouble and i respected that.. nothing like torque steer in a first car.

Then again, even with all my spirited driving, my only wreck ever was at a light someone failing to yield. No tickets, no wrecks, nobody dead. I was lucky and was always smart about my driving habits, well, sort of.

You have to keep in mind how many people in this forum who have "highly modded cars" but never get on them. Ill be honest about what ive done, many here arent. I could have handled a wrx at 16 as 230hp isnt much more than 200 and its awd. Some kids cant even handle a 100hp econobox.

Im only defending young people from all the people bitching about a kid having an sti.

Then again, theres a difference between "listing all these cars i beat" and giving a reference of speed. Your reading comprehension skills need some work.
Listen, Even if you raced just once on the road you are lucky to be alive. Yes many of us have done some things on the road that we should not of, but we calculated it and decided the risk was lower, and then did it. Since we are still here it worked out. But with a little bad luck it might not have worked out. That's why it is called an accident. I have a place where I do my pulls when I am data logging. It is fairly safe as I wait for cars to pass and then when they are far ahead I hit it. So the risk is low but I can get to 100 mph pretty quick and at 100 mph nothing is safe on the road. Its pure luck, if a deer or animal comes out I am done, or a blow tire, oil or debris on the road all will end bad. Luckily, I look out for these things before I do a run, but the risk is there. Want proof - check my pulse when I am doing it.

Youth and inexperience combined with stupidity, bad judgement and bad luck.

Stop defending that it could happen in other cars - when I was 17 and drove an 84 Cutlass Ciera, I never felt any pressure to go fast or handle because the car sucked. When you get a performance car you want to see and feel it perform so there is more pressure to speed. Hey I could have gotten a Mustang 5.0 at the time, but the insurance was like 3gs a year compared to like 1600 for the Ciera. Wonder why the insurance is so expensive on performance car?

You pass a test when you are 16 to drive and never have any training ever again for your entire life. Seems like this should change.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:32 PM   #95
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Listen, Even if you raced just once on the road you are lucky to be alive. Yes many of us have done some things on the road that we should not of, but we calculated it and decided the risk was lower, and then did it. Since we are still here it worked out. But with a little bad luck it might not have worked out. That's why it is called an accident. I have a place where I do my pulls when I am data logging. It is fairly safe as I wait for cars to pass and then when they are far ahead I hit it. So the risk is low but I can get to 100 mph pretty quick and at 100 mph nothing is safe on the road. Its pure luck, if a deer or animal comes out I am done, or a blow tire, oil or debris on the road all will end bad. Luckily, I look out for these things before I do a run, but the risk is there. Want proof - check my pulse when I am doing it.

Youth and inexperience combined with stupidity, bad judgement and bad luck.

Stop defending that it could happen in other cars - when I was 17 and drove an 84 Cutlass Ciera, I never felt any pressure to go fast or handle because the car sucked. When you get a performance car you want to see and feel it perform so there is more pressure to speed. Hey I could have gotten a Mustang 5.0 at the time, but the insurance was like 3gs a year compared to like 1600 for the Ciera. Wonder why the insurance is so expensive on performance car?

You pass a test when you are 16 to drive and never have any training ever again for your entire life. Seems like this should change.
Hehe, when I got my license I had an 85 pontiac sunbird with 100k miles on the odometer. No dangers of racing that thing either
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:08 PM   #96
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You fail at the interwebs, you should never post again. It's been proven time and time again that winter tires stop MUCH MUCH shorter and get WAY WAY better traction on ice than summer or all season tires.
Keep in mind, TireRack has been exceptional at perpetuating the notion that EVERYONE must have snow tires if they live in an area that gets any snow. They're also in the business of selling tires. For one, why in the world would anyone attempt to driving on a sheet of ice? We've gotten bad ice storms that glazed the streets in a 1"+ sheet of ice. No car or truck, no matter the tires, is going anywhere. Salt trucks have to back up and put salt/sand under their tires to make it up the most minor of grades. You can't walk on it, but rather crawl.

The most dangerous ice is black ice obviously because you can't see it. When you hit black ice, you're almost always going at a rate of speed that no tire, stability control system, etc. will save you in the event of an emergency manuver. You're already in way over your head.

Here's a novel idea. If the roads are covered in ice or you know the conditions will be such soon, don't drive. Same goes for impending snow storms. Don't drive when they're going to hit and avoid driving until the snow crews have worked the streets a bit. It's not like it's surprise when these events happen as you know about it days in advance. Hardly any of us have jobs where we MUST be there, no matter the conditions. Most employers would rather keep their employees safe and to work late rather than hurt or dead.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:14 PM   #97
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Sorry, I don't agree. It's the first week in October. Yes, while it was an abruptly chilly night...

It's unreasonable to expect someone to change their tires so early in a season due to a single dramatically cooler night. probably wasn't even on his radar.
This I agree with. Too early. That said...

Quote:
More importantly, while a summer tire doesn't grip as well in 40 degree weather as 80 degree weather, it still has plenty of grip at those temps to drive plenty plenty fast on. Certainly worlds more grip than would be needed to drive at anything close to safe speeds for that highway.

The tires were 10000% not the cause of the accident. Presumably, a very very bad driving error was.

More generally, I'm sick and tired of the..."OMG 40 degree temps, your summer tires are ice skates!!!!"

That's complete BS. Yes, they're down on grip. But if they're down enough grip that it's causing a car control issue on public roads, you're driving like a ****ing asshat and need to slow the hell down. Period.
... I disagree with this.

Sub 40 temperatures and raining/wet, at 3 o'dark in the morning with a loaded up car near or over weight capacity on Dunlop SP Sport 600s (I do believe these tires in particular do NOT like cold temps), over a crest (a bridgfe that allowed ambient temps to get under it allowing the crest to be even cooler temps) at triple digit speeds that more than likely made the car REALLY light on tires that are adverse to cold and wet, into a left 55mph turn... which is sketchy even during the daytime.

No other/very minimal cars on the road at that time to keep the ground free from pooling water or vacated from respective tire lanes.

Yes, driver error/experience are definitely to blame. I'm not going to ignore that. Probably the largest contributor. However, part of me believes these tires did not react how he anticipated since he only got the car a month or two ago and this was more than likely his first time actually experiencing what 'summer tires' really means. He didn't know any better, and hadn't been able to build up his experience to counter the cold/wet highway with his driving.

Yep. That too is inexperience to a point. Sadly, he had to learn the hard way what driving on tires that aren't good in wet cold is really like. The tires are partially to blame... because those tires don't like sub 40 wetness doing the speed limit, never mind triple digit speeds over a chilled/wet crest into a turn.

I'm not saying there was ice... just that over a wet/cold crest at those speeds with improper equipment (tires that can't handle cold/wet roads) is a recepe for disaster.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 10-09-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:19 PM   #98
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Sub 40 temperatures and raining/wet, at 3 o'dark in the morning with a loaded up car near or over weight capacity on Dunlop SP Sport 600s (I do believe these tires in particular do NOT like cold temps), over a crest at triple digit speeds that more than likely made the car REALLY light on its shoes that don'e like cold and wet, into a left 55mph turn that's sketchy even during the daytime.
As a note: Different summer tires have different tolerances for cold. I've had summer tires that gripped fine in dry, 30F weather. I've had summer tires that had very little grip in dry, 40F weather. KC noted these specific tires' behavior in cold - the specific tire is a real factor in this temperature range.

(In other words, just because one model summer tires grip fine in 40F in the rain doesn't mean all summer tires do)
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:20 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by s2ktosti

Hehe, when I got my license I had an 85 pontiac sunbird with 100k miles on the odometer. No dangers of racing that thing either
1989 corolla wagon. But seriously that car was sweet until things started falling off of it around 250k miles.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:29 PM   #100
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As a note: Different summer tires have different tolerances for cold. I've had summer tires that gripped fine in dry, 30F weather. I've had summer tires that had very little grip in dry, 40F weather. KC noted these specific tires' behavior in cold - the specific tire is a real factor in this temperature range.

(In other words, just because one model summer tires grip fine in 40F in the rain doesn't mean all summer tires do)
Yep. Under 40* temps and rain with variable runoff on an "Extreme Performance" Summer Tire... (Highest category for performance right unde Competition Tires) your life (and those in your car) is in your own hands.

At that, the hydroplaning resistance on those tires is 6.8 out of 10. I'd sell those in a heartbeat if I had them, but then again, I'm edumicated (street smart) in those aspects. Again, you can't discount the fact that those tires played a part.

(And they're also in 'Last Place' for the Tire Rack survey of the entire category of Extreme Performance tires available.... http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...ay.jsp?type=EP with 29 percent of people that owned them saying they'd buy them again. )

--kC
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