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Old 10-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #651
Subian
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Ron, can you post a picture of how you have yours setup? Is it somewhat similar to the first photo?
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:32 PM   #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subian
Ron, can you post a picture of how you have yours setup? Is it somewhat similar to the first photo?
Not running it anymore, just a hallman

All I did wAs follow the diagram in post1.

Last edited by Phatron; 10-23-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:51 PM   #653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post
FYI this is the install we have been recommending. Great Success!

Mike
That is how I've been installing them for the last year and a half. I tried just about every diagram posted here and got subpar performance. I finally just looked at the diagram on your site to see how it is normally routed and came up with what you've posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Capping the port can reduce the effectiveness of the ebcs.....but for this setup it's not a huge deal.

Routing back to intake is the best way IMO.

The only thing you really shouldn't do is vent it to atmosphere as its metered air....although it is a small amount.

It's the same thing as the top port on an ext wg. Some people hook it up, some people don't.
Running it into the inlet is an assisted boost leak. Sure, it's not venting metered air out of the tract, but it is re-routing needed pressure away from the WG I want it to open.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:56 AM   #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Capping the port can reduce the effectiveness of the ebcs.....but for this setup it's not a huge deal.

Routing back to intake is the best way IMO.

The only thing you really shouldn't do is vent it to atmosphere as its metered air....although it is a small amount.

It's the same thing as the top port on an ext wg. Some people hook it up, some people don't.
I think I know what you mean, but that's not the best analogy because in an EWG, the two ports do not intersect internally. They are on two opposite sides of a diaphragm. In an EBCS, the two exit ports are directly related to each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Running it into the inlet is an assisted boost leak. Sure, it's not venting metered air out of the tract, but it is re-routing needed pressure away from the WG I want it to open.
If you want to open the wastegate more, you reduce WGDC which diverts less to the inlet and more to the WG. Otherwise the pressure gets diverted to the inlet pre-compressor and whatever slight pressure loss you have post compressor, translates to a pressure gain pre-comrpessor. Running it to the 'inlet' really is the most optimal way. Period.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:25 AM   #655
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I'm going to tackle the install this weekend (again) I have a few questions though. With the bleed hole on one of the nipples of the hallman mbc, and the top port of the ewg vented, it's recommended to cap the "unused" port on the ebcs going to the inlet? Is there too much pressure in the system that's vented from the mbc/ewg?

Thanks
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:52 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post

If you want to open the wastegate more, you reduce WGDC which diverts less to the inlet and more to the WG. Otherwise the pressure gets diverted to the inlet pre-compressor and whatever slight pressure loss you have post compressor, translates to a pressure gain pre-comrpessor. Running it to the 'inlet' really is the most optimal way. Period.

If you lower the WGDC, it will open the port more directly to the WG diaphragm via the EBCS. 100% WGDC should put the MBC solely in the loop for boost control.

WGDC:

0% = Spring pressure
100% = MBC
1-99% = Boost control anywhere between spring pressure and MBC.

It works.

The only optimal way I've found after countless cars is the way Grimmspeed recommends. Using the inlet caused overboosting as I was essentially using the inlet vacuum to lower the pressure on the line needed for opening the WG.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:18 AM   #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
If you lower the WGDC, it will open the port more directly to the WG diaphragm via the EBCS. 100% WGDC should put the MBC solely in the loop for boost control.

WGDC:

0% = Spring pressure
100% = MBC
1-99% = Boost control anywhere between spring pressure and MBC.

It works.
ORLY? Thanks for explaining something I've known and used for the past 5 years. J/K, this thread is pretty long so I don't expect you to read that far back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
The only optimal way I've found after countless cars is the way Grimmspeed recommends. Using the inlet caused overboosting as I was essentially using the inlet vacuum to lower the pressure on the line needed for opening the WG.
I did not experience any overboosting. Just rock solid boost control at any throttle position, gear, RPM, etc. The phenomenon you described would result in the need for less WGDC for the same boost pressure. That's not a good or bad thing, just different. Are you sure you're tuning it correctly? Then again, I did run a lot of boost, and 'overboosting' isnt much of a concern when you're at the outer limits of available boost pressure.

But what you say is plausible. The vacuum in the inlet reduces the pressure on one side of the MBC so it 'sees' less of a pressure differential and opens the wastegate less which is basically equivalent to setting the MBC a little higher. But then can't you just loosen up the MBC a bit to compensate?

Last edited by MRF582; 11-28-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:28 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
ORLY? Thanks for explaining something I've known and used for the past 5 years. J/K, this thread is pretty long so I don't expect you to read that far back.
I read the thread in its entirety a couple years ago. Looking at the very first picture in this thread shows no connection to the turbo inlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
I did not experience any overboosting. Just rock solid boost control at any throttle position, gear, RPM, etc. The phenomenon you described would result in the need for less WGDC for the same boost pressure. That's not a good or bad thing, just different. Are you sure you're tuning it correctly?
Since you know the above, 100% WGDC should be FULL MBC control (closes off EBCS forcing pressure through MBC ONLY). With the EBCS going to the inlet, you cannot have FULL MBC control as your boost pressure will find its way into the inlet vs pushing the ball and spring.

In the path of least resistance, you don't want one of them to be a vacuum source. Might as well just stick with an EBCS only setup. Either restrict the pressure via the EBCS or the MBC. The boost will find the easier route.

Tuning is not a problem; I've done a car or two.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:50 AM   #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Since you know the above, 100% WGDC should be FULL MBC control (closes off EBCS forcing pressure through MBC ONLY). With the EBCS going to the inlet, you cannot have FULL MBC control as your boost pressure will find its way into the inlet vs pushing the ball and spring.
That's a good point. I wonder why I haven't experienced overboosting issues with running it back to the inlet.

But yes, you're right, capping it off and effectively making it a restrictor style 2-port should be the best way.

But here's a question. Does this slight 'overboost' which introduces more pressure pre-compressor, maintain the same pressure ratio across the compressor? So this overboost, simply allows for more air to flow through without making the efficiency any worse?
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #660
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It does not introduce pressure pre-compressor as it a small amount of air. The volume of air does not matter, it's the pressure you're trying to maintain at the WG that does. If you're venting/sucking pressure away from the boost controllers, you're making the MBC useless.

With the way I described, you will NEVER overboost unless you pop a line off. The ultimate path of least resistance will use the EBCS unless it is closed off too much and then the MBC comes into play.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:07 PM   #661
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I'm not fully understanding how it causes an overboost.

If you hook the setup up, then start at wg pressure, then start tightening the mbc and stop when you get to the desired boost pressure....when does the overboost start?

i've had mine hooked up with that port going to the inlet, with that port on the ebcs open to atm, and with that port plugged and didnt notice any differences. However, I didnt do them all back to back as a test

I still refer back to my analogy of the ext wg's....cause people set them up differently and some folks say they dont work unless you have the top port connected....some say they dont work if they are connected....some say it works better one way vice the other.

If you read back through this thread you'll see people who cap it, people who vent it, and people who run it back to the intake. and theres also people that say each way doesnt work.

Bottom line is if the mbc is controlling the boost.....then its working, no?

Last edited by Phatron; 11-28-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:27 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I'm not fully understanding how it causes an overboost.
When you command 100% WGDC, the boost has two places to go, the WG or the inlet. Given the inlet is adding vacuum, it wins. Therefore, you have a lack of pressure on the WG diaphragm to open it up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
If you hook the setup up, then start at wg pressure, then start tightening the mbc and stop when you get to the desired boost pressure....when does the overboost start?
With 100% WGDC, overboost is big and instant. It really doesn't matter what your MBC is set at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
i've had mine hooked up with that port going to the inlet, with that port on the ebcs open to atm, and with that port plugged and didnt notice any differences. However, I didnt do them all back to back as a test
A little over a year ago, I tested all the routes depicted here. The best and most reliable, not to mention the only one that will actually CAP your max boost in the event of a EBCS failure or tuning issue, is the diagram that Grimmspeed posted.

For those that have it in the intake, what is your WOT WGDC (as well as the maxium post compensation)? Is the MBC truly controlling your WOT boost, or is it the EBCS?
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:37 PM   #663
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yamaha, let me ask a question:

how much vacuum do you think you're seeing in the maf pipe?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:08 PM   #664
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Considering that's all my Crawford AOS uses for a vacuum source and it works well, there's quite a bit.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #665
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The vacuum line for pcv is also 20x bigger than the pinhole ebcs line.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:52 PM   #666
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Pressure drop across the ports is the same, and since that's all we really care about here... The amount of air actually in the boost control setup is very small. We're not concerned about the volume of air but the pressure throughout the boost control setup.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:03 PM   #667
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Mine worked all the way from wg press to 32 psi
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:24 PM   #668
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What was your commanded WOT WGDC?
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:05 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
With 100% WGDC, overboost is big and instant. It really doesn't matter what your MBC is set at.
This has definitely not been my experience.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:37 PM   #670
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Can you provide a diagram of how yours is specifically rigged up, as well as your WGDC map (and verify WGDC post comp is 100%)?
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:10 AM   #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
With 100% WGDC, overboost is big and instant. It really doesn't matter what your MBC is set at.
If there's a hose from the BCS to the inlet, you mean?

Because that's not been my experience either... I do get a couple psi of overshoot, but only briefly, and then it settles back down to whatever the MBC (Hallman RX) was set for.

I'm told that an EWG will help with the overshoot, and I'll test that theory eventually...
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:53 AM   #672
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What was your commanded WOT WGDC?
95% target, 95% achieved.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:33 AM   #673
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Matching numbers in the ECU is not the same as actual boost. What happens when you input 100% in you WGDC at WOT? What exact routing did you do? What was your spring pressure?

The whole idea of the hybrid setup is using the MBC at WOT for boost control, yet maintain a car that does not PTFB during cruising. If you're not doing 100%, why put a MBC in anyway? Once the throttle goes to the floor, the EBCS is completely taken out of the loop as it flips to the port that is capped off, thus forcing everything through the MBC as if the EBCS was not there. The EBCS should only have control at PT conditions where you would build boost over what the WG spring pressure is. If you run a low enough spring setup, you could virtually have LOTS of boost control at PT, however, with the MBC in parallel and no other exit (not VTA or inlet on the 3rd port), it will ultimately cap max boost if for some reason high gear/high load would give you PTFB from a tune that would otherwise not be hitting boost targets.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:53 AM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Considering that's all my Crawford AOS uses for a vacuum source and it works well, there's quite a bit.
if that is indeed the case, then you're throwing substantial power/efficiency away due to excessive pre compressor airflow restriction, which is the absolute worst place to have pressure drop.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:20 AM   #675
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And here I always thought the worst place to have vacuum while at WOT was on the other side of the turbo. Unless you run the turbo without an intake, or a ridiculously large diameter intake, it's just a fact of life. Current inlets have support wire running through them due to the lack of pressure on the pre-compressor side.

Anyway, about boost control.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 11-29-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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