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Old 10-22-2012, 11:01 PM   #201
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Makes perfect sense to cross shop the vehicles. Tons of people care about performance and price much more than the number of doors.

Currently own an Evo and heavily modified eclipse, had a WRX before the evo and currently looking for an RWD peformance car....currently cross shopping this, the BRZ if offered with a turbo in 2014 or so, or I will be looking at a used caymen. If I were looking for a single car (plan on keeping the ones I have), I would be cross shopping all of them.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:06 AM   #202
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I'm still sticking with my Ecoboost 4 base, N/A V6, Ecoboost 6, N/A 5.0 (and variants) prediction from earlier.

Two things:

1) They just spent a whole ton of money redesigning the V6 for what's currently in the Mustang, no reason to see them ditching it after only a half-generation.

2) They just created the brilliant Coyote from the ground up, and it's an amazing and future proofed motor. There's no reason to believe the GT will be having an Ecoboost 6. I also have a hard time believing that they will be turbocharging the 5.0, unless for a special model like a tweener between the GT and the GT500. The GT500 will probably get a heavily modded supercharged 5.0 or a 6.2, the 5.4 should be on it's way to a graceful death.

Models:

Ecoboost 4 will be base, and have a performance oriented model to harken back to (and probably called) the SVO. ~250hp
N/A V6 will be the inexpensive performance option, probably with a modest HP boost. ~310hp
Ecoboost 6 will probably be for a special model, it would slot perfectly as a "GT350". ~350-370hp
N/A 5.0 for the GT, and a tuned out N/A 5.0 for the Boss 302. I would expect direct injection to be found since it's already DI-ready. This should increase MPG slightly and also give a modest performance boost. ~430-450hp
Ecoboost V8 is a big wildcard, there's not much of a slot for it, other than in a 500hp range. Maybe for a Boss 302 Laguna Seca as a much higher end model? ~500+hp
Supercharged 5.0 or 6.2 will power the GT500. I would lean more towards the 6.2, but it is a huge motor so it's anyones guess. The 5.4 is just too long in the tooth to be seen in a GT500 again, and there's no way the GT500 will get anything called an "Ecoboost". ~600+hp

It seems like a lot of models, but Ford has never been shy about "pimping" the Mustang and making a billion variants. Obviously I wouldn't expect all these models immediately, probably a phased in strategy is more likely, as they've done in the past (like the motor refreshes in the current body style).
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:31 AM   #203
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:59 AM   #204
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Rumor has it based on a teaser from Ford, an EcoBoost Mustang will be at SEMA, which is currently thought to be an SVO. The SVO IMO will be the EcoBoost V6, not the I4. Releasing an SVO for '14 prior to the new platform will open up the whole turbo Mustang idea prior to the '15.

So it looks like those who want a turbo Mustang may get their wish using current platform.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:23 AM   #205
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I would buy the everloving crap out of that.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:34 AM   #206
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:56 AM   #207
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hnnnnnng, i want exactly that and depending on MPG offered, either an EcoBoost V6 or the N/A 5.0
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:13 AM   #208
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I don't like the pictures in the link as much as I did the ones in this thread. The rears look too much like the last Fox bodies.

Despite the advantages offered by the independent suspension, I would probably rather have the current car...even though it is not quite as good. The current car has an 'it' factor.

Maybe I can just get a used GT somewhere.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:35 AM   #209
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hnnnnnng, i want exactly that and depending on MPG offered, either an EcoBoost V6 or the N/A 5.0
I bet the 5.0 with direct injection will get impressive MPG numbers, especially in a smaller and lighter chassis.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:02 PM   #210
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Agree, when the Coyote goes DI it is going to be just freaking nuts good.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:05 PM   #211
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not that you are bias or anything.



you and your silly OHC engines.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:55 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Vostok 7 View Post
1) They just spent a whole ton of money redesigning the V6 for what's currently in the Mustang, no reason to see them ditching it after only a half-generation.
But doesn't that 3.7-liter V-6 also rest under the hood of other Ford models (though possibly with different tunes and outputs)? It's not as if using a different motor lets all of that money go to waste (though I do realize that not using it in the Mustang doesn't let them recoup as much since it's the volume-seller engine for a successful line).
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #213
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But doesn't that 3.7-liter V-6 also rest under the hood of other Ford models (though possibly with different tunes and outputs)? It's not as if using a different motor lets all of that money go to waste (though I do realize that not using it in the Mustang doesn't let them recoup as much since it's the volume-seller engine for a successful line).
Indeed:

Quote:
20082011 Mazda CX-9
2009 Mazda6: 272 hp (203 kW) at 6,250 rpm and 269 lbft (365 Nm) at 4,250 rpm
2009 Lincoln MKS: 300 hp (224 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 280 lbft (380 Nm) at 4,000 rpm
2010 Lincoln MKT: 268 hp (200 kW) at 6,250 rpm and 267 lbft (376 Nm) at 4,250 rpm
2011 Ford Mustang: 305 hp (227 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 280 lbft (380 Nm) at 4,250 rpm
2011 Ford Edge Sport: 305 hp (227 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 280 lbft (380 Nm) at 4,000 rpm
2011 Lincoln MKX: 305 hp (227 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 280 lbft (380 Nm) at 4,000 rpm
2011 Ford F-150: 302 hp (225 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 278 lbft (378 Nm) at 4,000 rpm
2012 Ginetta G60: 310 hp (231 kW) at 6,500 rpm and 288 lbft (390 Nm) at 4,500 rpm
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:24 PM   #214
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not that you are bias or anything.



you and your silly OHC engines.
yeah, I have a thing for those kinds of engines.

I think the GM pushrod V8 is a reliable hammer. Trustworthy and simple. Those are VERY good characteristics to have for ANY engine. But, they just bore me now. It goes without saying though, my personal tastes are not a good base for any business model.

My complaint is what is always will be. The cylinder head will always be its weakest link as it produce less power than 4 valve setup if everything is kept equal.

I think when ford adds Direct Injection to the Coyote it will be a sweet lump for sure.

Imagine what a 12.5:1 compression Coyote will feel like!
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:31 PM   #215
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I wonder if GM is going to eventually try a 4V pushrod engine. It's possible, just a bit...awkward from an engineering point of view.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:21 AM   #216
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I wonder if GM is going to eventually try a 4V pushrod engine. It's possible, just a bit...awkward from an engineering point of view.
I want to see them go in the direction of progression.. not regression :P.

Here's to hoping engines eventually get forged internals and pneumatic valvetrain so we get the best of both worlds through the increase of RPM limits (think F1 engines). Great MPG at low RPM's and shift into those 14k+ rpm zones for when you need power Torque sux, but hey, you'll only have that problem for 1 gear.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:59 AM   #217
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Um forged internals and pneumatic valves are only a small reason they can rev to the moon in F1. Another reason has to do with the 1 in stoke most F1 motors have.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:08 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by lemming View Post
I wonder if GM is going to eventually try a 4V pushrod engine. It's possible, just a bit...awkward from an engineering point of view.
There was a 3-valve head under development at one point. The intake valves were still driven by 1 pushrod, but there was a Y-shaped rocker arm that drove the two valves. It never went into production, probably because they were able to hit 500+ horsepower with the LS7 motor without it.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:35 AM   #219
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I hit 500 HP with a N/A 6.3 in my small block 400 with a single holley Carb I built in my garage when I was 17 years old. High compression and HUGE displacement make 500 HP sort of a chump number to hit. I could even run pump gas (but just barely) on my iron block, iron head motor.

I am just pointing out that when you have 6+ liters of displacement, making 500 HP is not exactly hard, in fact it is almost a challenge to NOT make that much HP.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #220
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But I think there are other compliance issues (emissions comes to mind) that might not have been met by that setup.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:32 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I hit 500 HP with a N/A 6.3 in my small block 400 with a single holley Carb I built in my garage when I was 17 years old. High compression and HUGE displacement make 500 HP sort of a chump number to hit. I could even run pump gas (but just barely) on my iron block, iron head motor.

I am just pointing out that when you have 6+ liters of displacement, making 500 HP is not exactly hard, in fact it is almost a challenge to NOT make that much HP.
uhh, I'm missing the point here, you were able to hit 500hp, with stone age tools and a motor that weighs more than a miata... go you. It probably got little more than 10mpg as well and would never pass CARB laws in Cali.

GM is making a (fairly) fuel efficient motor, that is emissions legal, light and bullet proof. I'd love to see you do the same in your garage these days. Its just not possible, unless you buy a new vette (with the lt1) swap on some headers, exhaust, intake, and you may also get close to 500hp then again, its no longer emissions legal.. but you get my point.

Your post is comparing apples to oranges, as displacement is not everything.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:29 PM   #222
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uhh, I'm missing the point here, you were able to hit 500hp, with stone age tools and a motor that weighs more than a miata... go you. It probably got little more than 10mpg as well and would never pass CARB laws in Cali.

GM is making a (fairly) fuel efficient motor, that is emissions legal, light and bullet proof. I'd love to see you do the same in your garage these days. Its just not possible, unless you buy a new vette (with the lt1) swap on some headers, exhaust, intake, and you may also get close to 500hp then again, its no longer emissions legal.. but you get my point.

Your post is comparing apples to oranges, as displacement is not everything.
You just brought up emissions to Scrappy Doo?

I can already hear a whistling in the air as he plummets down from orbit with an elbow drop...

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Old 10-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #223
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spazegun, thanks for proving my point. With nothing more than a local machine shop, I was able to equal or better the performance of the new V8 when I was 17. Well match most of the metrics anyway. Yeah, GO ME.

Had I the money I would have sourced an Aluminum block, aluminum heads (and therefore easily met your lightweight requirement) , and a fuel injection system. Had I even more money, I would have installed a 6 speed manual and crazy highway gearing. Lets not be crazy and even insinuate I would ever install a catalytic converter. So I yield that one.

But I was making 5.75/hour, and I sacrificed mpg for HP and torque. But make no mistake, I did not sacrifice durability. I beat the Holy Hell out of that engine for 20k miles before I sold it and was running years after. Who knows how long it lasted? As long as a new GM block? Um, I think it is safe to say no, no way it would last that long. Ole Cleetus in his machine shop probably did not adhere to the strict tolerances and cleanliness as GM did. But he did okay.

The only thing GM had on me was available material selection, fuel injection, and crazy good machining.

Again, making 500 HP on 6.3 liters of engine with todays technology is extremely doable and I would think even less of GM if they could not.

My old iron block/iron head motor is very much like every other pushrod motor made in the past 30 years. Take away the materials changes, they are both just high compression hugh displacement engines. One just has more emissions crap on it to make it 'green'.

Elbow drop averted....but barely
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:42 PM   #224
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spazegun, thanks for proving my point. With nothing more than a local machine shop, I was able to equal or better the performance of the new V8 when I was 17. Well match most of the metrics anyway. Yeah, GO ME.

Had I the money I would have sourced an Aluminum block, aluminum heads (and therefore easily met your lightweight requirement) , and a fuel injection system. Had I even more money, I would have installed a 6 speed manual and crazy highway gearing. Lets not be crazy and even insinuate I would ever install a catalytic converter. So I yield that one.

But I was making 5.75/hour, and I sacrificed mpg for HP and torque. But make no mistake, I did not sacrifice durability. I beat the Holy Hell out of that engine for 20k miles before I sold it and was running years after. Who knows how long it lasted? As long as a new GM block? Um, I think it is safe to say no, no way it would last that long. Ole Cleetus in his machine shop probably did not adhere to the strict tolerances and cleanliness as GM did. But he did okay.

The only thing GM had on me was available material selection, fuel injection, and crazy good machining.

Again, making 500 HP on 6.3 liters of engine with todays technology is extremely doable and I would think even less of GM if they could not.

My old iron block/iron head motor is very much like every other pushrod motor made in the past 30 years. Take away the materials changes, they are both just high compression hugh displacement engines. One just has more emissions crap on it to make it 'green'.

Elbow drop averted....but barely
So you concede that your engine was:
1. Larger displacement (you said 400 cubic inches, correct?)
2. Not as durable
3. Not as clean
4. Lower mileage

You have an interesting definition of "equaling the performance of the modern V8". You don't even "match most of the metrics" unless you dismiss the ones you don't seem to care for. What was your point again?

You can't idly dismiss the fact that GM has to meet pretty stringent emissions standards. To me, this is the biggest achievement of the GM V8's. The doomsayers have been adamant these engines would be killed off by emissions regulation. Yet, GM just announced another iteration.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:19 PM   #225
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So you concede that your engine was:
1. Larger displacement (you said 400 cubic inches, correct?)
2. Not as durable
3. Not as clean
4. Lower mileage

You have an interesting definition of "equaling the performance of the modern V8". You don't even "match most of the metrics" unless you dismiss the ones you don't seem to care for. What was your point again?

You can't idly dismiss the fact that GM has to meet pretty stringent emissions standards. To me, this is the biggest achievement of the GM V8's. The doomsayers have been adamant these engines would be killed off by emissions regulation. Yet, GM just announced another iteration.
:: air whistling ::
:: fire from re-entry ::
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