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Old 10-24-2012, 08:54 AM   #1
kapp_badbloodz
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Default 704 Casting issues? whats the final call on this?

Currently building a 2.5 block because I threw a rod bearing in my OEM block due to ringland failure. Was going to go with an OEM EJ25 case with forged goodies and be stage 1.

However, under guidance from reliable sources; supposedly the current 704 casting has been notoriously cracking cylinder walls like a boss. Even under optimal conditions and build specs the blocks have been busting walls and was brought to my attention by 3-4 instances. One of which was build, installed, and then cracked on the dyno.

Has anyone heard or experienced this phenomenon? Debating either proceeding as planned or going with a cosworth short block since the price difference is like +/- 1500. But still :/

What say you Nasioc? Discuss...
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:58 AM   #2
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Also, since the cosworths utilize a OEM case (from what I have researched :/ ) I haven't heard of them having any failures if they are in fact using 704 castings as well... why is this?
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:02 AM   #3
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Also, are there any other alternatives excluding sleeving the block?
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:18 AM   #4
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There are alternatives but it really depends who you talk to about their viability(just like sleeves). Element tuning is starting to offer a reinforcement that if you add to one of their blocks is $650 or you can send them your longblock and he can do it to that. There are also the companies like outfront that install aluminum pieces around the top of the cylinder to close your deck.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:14 AM   #5
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I've heard of that. Something like a girdle or similar product that braces the cylinder wall.

If the block is prone to failure I'd rather avoid it all together. But my main question is if Cosworth uses OE EJ25 cases... why haven't I heard of any of them failing but other OE cases fail?

Weird... I'm going to call Cosworth and ask today
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:35 AM   #6
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You might want to contact P&L and see if they have started to offer their block re-enforcement kit. They also offer concrete jobs for the serious drag racers

Otherwise, I would just say get a dry sleeve and call it a day. The cylinder wall flex will be much more controlled.

But if your gonna stick stage 1 (what is that 300whp?) I can't imagine a stock 257 cracking at that pressure.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:58 AM   #7
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We've done a number of 704 blocks including in the race car and have not seen a cylinder wall split yet.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:15 PM   #8
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I keep going back and forth about how much to worry about it. I'm not too focused on it...Hopefully I'm right.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick View Post
You might want to contact P&L and see if they have started to offer their block re-enforcement kit. They also offer concrete jobs for the serious drag racers

Otherwise, I would just say get a dry sleeve and call it a day. The cylinder wall flex will be much more controlled.

But if your gonna stick stage 1 (what is that 300whp?) I can't imagine a stock 257 cracking at that pressure.
The concrete setup does not work.

Agreed any case will for for 300-600whp. The bracing helps if you are going to be pushing the motor hard, I have been running the pinned( cylinder braces ) for yrs, HKS/JUN one of them started doing it back in like 99' Nothing new or magical about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
We've done a number of 704 blocks including in the race car and have not seen a cylinder wall split yet.
Dear God THANK YOU!!!!! I dont know why everyone keeps on with this cracked 704 casing stuff. If you cracked a sleeve and make less then 550-600whp, you had to much cylinder pressure or knocked like crazy.

I have tuned plenty and run a 704 block in my own 10second 130+mph daily driver. 36psi, no cracked sleeves... although I dont think running 36psi on a stock unbraced liner is a good thing.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:41 PM   #10
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I have this experience first hand on my 2011 704 series 350 WHP/ 373 Wtq HTA68 23.5 psi w/meth., element tuning has had three (3) at least. I am going with an older 702 series just because I dont want this issue. 702 series has vertical liners and 703-703 have barrell type liners.

I will not chance it and was going to go with all the above suggestions, but if the liners are bad and busting, it doesnt matter what you do.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
The concrete setup does not work.
Why didn't it work? Not enough cooling?
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:04 PM   #12
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As far as I can tell one or two instances are enough for concern. My car exhibited no knock events at all on the dyno, no overheating etc. I was told on many occassions that streghtening the pistons to (forged) is only going to reveal other week points like the cylinder wall.

Was mine a one-off issue possible, but now that I know about it, there are more people coming out of the woodwork with the same issue.

Kapp I am in the same boat as you, I have a brand new 704 series SB is sitting on the floor was ready to go in and I stopped it. Going full build this time with an older series 702, lets see what happens.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
The concrete setup does not work.

Agreed any case will for for 300-600whp. The bracing helps if you are going to be pushing the motor hard, I have been running the pinned( cylinder braces ) for yrs, HKS/JUN one of them started doing it back in like 99' Nothing new or magical about it.



Dear God THANK YOU!!!!! I dont know why everyone keeps on with this cracked 704 casing stuff. If you cracked a sleeve and make less then 550-600whp, you had to much cylinder pressure or knocked like crazy.

I have tuned plenty and run a 704 block in my own 10second 130+mph daily driver. 36psi, no cracked sleeves... although I dont think running 36psi on a stock unbraced liner is a good thing.
Ditto, been running 704's for a long time up to 10.0 in the 1/4. Broke a lot of other stuff but never even had a hairline crack in any cylinders.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:16 PM   #14
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Like I said... many people have not had any issues. However, there have been more people having issues so I want to avoid it like the plague.

It just sucks because I am on a tight budget and, with my luck, I cannot afford to risk it seeing how one was just built, hit the dyno with 23 psi, and cracked. Mind you... this was a stage 1 build.

So I'm kind of at a crossroad :/
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:21 PM   #15
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Its interesting that i have stumbled upon this thread in my very slow process of building an extra block i have laying around.

Im sure some have read this posting from import tuner, how ever you view them, and found some interesting info. Builders like AMR, Moore, & Crawford have tossed out a few details about some of the very thoughts/ discussions in this thread.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...h/viewall.html

Check it out if u have 5 mins to spare.


Mario
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #16
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Kapp if by stage-1 you are referring to my car, I am far from stage-1.

HTA68 (at the time) 20GTX STS now
Full stage-2 plus
FMIC
HSF-2 Meth
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx
Kapp if by stage-1 you are referring to my car, I am far from stage-1.

HTA68 (at the time) 20GTX STS now
Full stage-2 plus
FMIC
HSF-2 Meth
I was talking about my car:

EJ25 case
Forged:
-rods
-pistons
-crank
all new internals yada yada

HTA Green
900cc injectors
All supporting mods, no meth, TMIC.

I have a NIB Perrin FMIC core that I was going to run short pipes and a flipped manifold but throwing a bearing screwed the pooch on my original build.

So I was referring to stage one on my car because the replacement block, internals, turbo, etc... just what I've been informed :/
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapp_badbloodz View Post
I've heard of that. Something like a girdle or similar product that braces the cylinder wall.

If the block is prone to failure I'd rather avoid it all together. But my main question is if Cosworth uses OE EJ25 cases... why haven't I heard of any of them failing but other OE cases fail?

Weird... I'm going to call Cosworth and ask today
Who have you talked to who is running a 704 series Cosworth long block? You have to take into consideration the sample size. Fewer Cosworth blocks are flying off the shelf therefore there is a smaller sample size for comparison therefore you will hear less about the Cosworth failures if any.

This is a rather new problem also. If it is legit in time you will see more instances of it but being that is is a relatively new problem you shouldn't expect all of the block to fail at once and everyone to instantly post their failures on Nasioc. Give it time.

Last edited by kellygnsd; 10-24-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:18 PM   #19
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Sorry Kapp, understand. Remember that all cosworth blocks, bearings, pistons etc. are all hand picked for exact tolerances. I agree with kelly I am hoping it is just a fluke thing, but I am going with an older block series that is proven itself overtime.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx
Sorry Kapp, understand. Remember that all cosworth blocks, bearings, pistons etc. are all hand picked for exact tolerances. I agree with kelly I am hoping it is just a fluke thing, but I am going with an older block series that is proven itself overtime.
Lol no Cosworth, to my knowledge, has failed yet. It is the built OEM blocks that are 704 castings that are failing. I didn't say Cosworth :P

What sparked this discussion is that it was brought to my attention, that when considering a short block replacement with a built OEM block, that the newer 704 castings are failing even right on the dyno after being built by reputable shops and builders. I know of 4 total, one in my area that died on the dyno right after install. Research was conducted and it wasn't anything besides the cylinder wall.

I mentioned Cosworth because I am getting this block over the original portion of building a new OEM block. That and Cosworth stands behind their product ^_____^
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:57 AM   #21
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But doesnt cosworth use OEM blocks? My tuner called cosworth when mine happened and then didnt really have anything to say other than they have not seen it, true or not, dont really know.

But i agree 1 or 2 busted blocks is cause for concern.
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx
But doesnt cosworth use OEM blocks? My tuner called cosworth when mine happened and then didnt really have anything to say other than they have not seen it, true or not, dont really know.

But i agree 1 or 2 busted blocks is cause for concern.
We know of 3 reported instances and one that happened at the shop. Brand new EJ25 case, built internals, poof magically the cylinder wall popped at like 23psi or something around that area.

Not taking the chance... I am ordering my cosworth short block next week ^____^ the shop told me that cosworth stands being its products so if anything does happen I'll be good in that retrospect.

I am surprised there hasn't been a whole lot posted on this issue. I guess its just now becoming more publicized :/

Someone told me to sleeve it but I said for less I can get a cos block and save money to build the heads later... I think overall its a win situation to avoid the headache down the road
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:30 PM   #23
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Cosworth is still going to use a 704 block. So your saying it was the person who built the block then and not the block. Cosworth makes good products and follow strict tolerances but if there using a 704 block which you are saying is weak. Than aren't you starting at square one? All you are doing than is changing builders and not the block problem you speak of per say.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:01 PM   #24
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That was my thought process exactly, the only blocks that are avlaiable and have been for two years new from Subaru are 704 series. Am I worried about going with a 2005 series block in a 2011 car yeah kinda of, Xluben (Ben) runs that exact same series block at like 470+ WHP with forged internals, so it cant be that bad.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:04 PM   #25
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Also remember Cosworth has the pick of the crop from Suby when it comes to the blocks. Could mine have had some Metallurgy issues, yes possibly just the luck of the draw I guess.
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