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Old 10-26-2012, 09:25 PM   #226
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Yes, that may have been a bit harsh on my part. Mr. Scrappy, I mean no disrespect.

I, too, used to think the LS motors were old tech dinosaurs. As I've aged and overcome my earlier bad experiences with GM cars (a 1980 Buick Skylark in particular), I've come to appreciate them. It's hard to argue with the results.
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:24 PM   #227
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So you concede that your engine was:
1. Larger displacement (you said 400 cubic inches, correct?)
2. Not as durable
3. Not as clean
4. Lower mileage

You have an interesting definition of "equaling the performance of the modern V8". You don't even "match most of the metrics" unless you dismiss the ones you don't seem to care for. What was your point again?

You can't idly dismiss the fact that GM has to meet pretty stringent emissions standards. To me, this is the biggest achievement of the GM V8's. The doomsayers have been adamant these engines would be killed off by emissions regulation. Yet, GM just announced another iteration.
400 cubic inches is about 6.3 ish liters...same as current Vette engine.

Not sure if as durable, but mine was flawless while I had it. I never performed a 100k mile durability test. So we will never know.

Not as clean and got lower mileage. Yeah, I concede those two points. I guess the total engineering might and resources of GM had a 17 year old on Pizza Hut Salary beat. Guess they showed me!

The only notable innovations the small block has really seen is in the materials and emissions department, from an all time low in 1977, to an all time high today. If that impresses you, then great. Liking the LS engines is not hard to do for most people. They check a awful lot of boxes and do a bunch of things well. But on a list of most desirable engines, they are not in the top 30 for me personally.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:19 PM   #228
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Guess I'll be the odd man out and say I don't like that nearly as much as the Red and Green renderings that showed up earlier in the thread. They preserved much more of the current/traditional Mustang aesthetic.

I'm sure there will be plenty of new/used '11-'14 GTs around for a while for any of us that like the retro styling better.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:50 PM   #229
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Guess I'll be the odd man out and say I don't like that nearly as much as the Red and Green renderings that showed up earlier in the thread. They preserved much more of the current/traditional Mustang aesthetic.

I'm sure there will be plenty of new/used '11-'14 GTs around for a while for any of us that like the retro styling better.
looks a bit more compact car-like... Almost like an EVO coupe...

The side view/cabin area looks more like the late 90's mustang...
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:36 AM   #230
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I forgot where I read it, but it looks like the EcoBoost 4-cylinder model is going to cost a little more than the N/A V6 model, then will come the GT with the supposedly unchanged 5.0L. And there is still speculation about this unknown smaller-displacement high-output EcoBoost V6 codenamed "Nano"; it would be nice if that were the 6-cylinder option instead of just bringing back the N/A 3.7L.

On a side note, the Cobra Jet just got an EcoBoost TT setup. Since the fate of the Boss 302 and GT500 are undecided for the 2015 model, they should use the EcoBoost 5.0 in the next generation GT500 in my opinion.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #231
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I forgot where I read it, but it looks like the EcoBoost 4-cylinder model is going to cost a little more than the N/A V6 model, then will come the GT with the supposedly unchanged 5.0L. And there is still speculation about this unknown smaller-displacement high-output EcoBoost V6 codenamed "Nano"; it would be nice if that were the 6-cylinder option instead of just bringing back the N/A 3.7L.

On a side note, the Cobra Jet just got an EcoBoost TT setup. Since the fate of the Boss 302 and GT500 are undecided for the 2015 model, they should use the EcoBoost 5.0 in the next generation GT500 in my opinion.
I would be amazed if the BOSS goes FI. The whole selling point behind the car is that it's a N/A Coyote cranked to 11.

I don't think the GT500 is destined for a twin-turbo setup. Sticking with a supercharger is much more likely.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:30 PM   #232
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I would be amazed if the BOSS goes FI. The whole selling point behind the car is that it's a N/A Coyote cranked to 11.

I don't think the GT500 is destined for a twin-turbo setup. Sticking with a supercharger is much more likely.
I agree, the Mustang has never really been an automotive technology leader...it will probably keep the same formula for another decade.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:31 PM   #233
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I would be amazed if the BOSS goes FI. The whole selling point behind the car is that it's a N/A Coyote cranked to 11.

I don't think the GT500 is destined for a twin-turbo setup. Sticking with a supercharger is much more likely.
The bigger the supercharger and the more volume it is asked to compress... the more power it takes to do it. It starts to cut into the net power benefit for the engine to be supercharged, and the engine has to be all the more stressed to push higher and higher output numbers.

Exhaust turbines are thermal waste recovery, and two compressors (twin turbos) can afford to be smaller each, and push the same combined volume in total. Since they aren't taking power from the crankshaft, only adding to it.... all added power is net added power.

If a supercharged 600hp V8 is using 100hp to turn it's supercharger at high engine speeds, where peak power is... it is actually stressed like a 700hp engine, but still outputting 600hp as a system.

A turbocharged 600hp V8 is not using 100hp to mechanically turn the compressors, waste exhaust thermal energy is doing that, rather than being wasted. The penalty of exhaust backpressure on the fluid dynamics of the engine is less than the mechanical power demand of a supercharger at peak RPMs, and the net gain of turbos are usually higher than the net gain of superchargers at higher RPMs.

If the turbines were mechanically compounded, rather than driving the compressors directly, they would be adding waste thermal energy as power to the engine mechanically, to more than off-set the mechanical subtraction of a supercharger... Like engines in some variants of the P38 Lightning. But that is another matter.

With Ford's V8, like the CobraJet project, The engine with direct fuel injection becomes part of Ford's EcoBoost family, if they choose to market it as such.... but a TT-V8 isn't exactly a greenie poster-child engine. It might be more fuel efficient per horsepower than most other ~600hp engines, and possibly even run on regular fuel, though...

It is not as if a 5.0-5.4-5.8-6.2 V8 is suffering for low-end torque as-is. If anything, supercharging the V8 makes the current GT500 less-useable, as the throttle has to be feathered all the more, to keep the rear tires from going up in smoke if you sneeze while your foot is near the pedal. Too much shock to the rear tires is not beneficial for traction, and positive displacement blowers sometimes have a hard time keeping up with the engine at higher RPMs.

Low end torque is even less of a problem with DI's allowance for higher static compression ratios to act more like an atmospheric high-performance engine when off-boost, and making less peak boost pressure make more of a difference.

If exhaust system packaging isn't too difficult (EB V6 seems not to have much problem) and maybe with air to liquid charge cooling in the intake manifold, (which they might already use for the Supercharger...) I can see how twin turbocharging the next GT500 would maybe be preferable than positive displacement supercharging.

But I agree... Boss 302 should be the best atmospheric 5.0 V8 in Ford's catalog.

Maybe they should do a Boss 380 drag-race special, with a twin-turbo 6.2... Sort of like a modern Boss 429. They could share that engine with the Raptor.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 11-01-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:38 PM   #234
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I guess somebody should tell the top fuel guys that they should not be running Superchargers.

Superchargers take a whole lot of power to turn, but they almost always give FAR more than they take. Designing the engine to take the stresses is just a matter of design choices. Superchargers also have the benefit of being positive displacement and have immediate throttle response, where as any turbo system is not as quick to respond. The BOSS needs to stay NA or if it must go FI it should be supercharged. Predictability and responsiveness are what make for a great track car. Turbos would not improve the BOSS no matter how more 'efficient' exhaust scavenging is.

Also I would like to put my plea for you to stop suggesting that directly connected turbos using exhaust gasses to power the crank directly would work on a street car. An 18 or 27 bank radial engine or a monster V12 used in WWII planes is not the same animal as a street car. These engines do not work in the same environment as car engines that are on and off the throttle all the time. WWII had many novel ideas that work well at 30,000 feet on turbo/supercharged engines. They are not applicable to car engines. So please that idea is not feasible.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:33 AM   #235
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Wasn't saying that a mustang or any other car engine should be turbine compounded, but I don't think it is as bad as you portray.

I was talking about the differences between how superchargers and turbochargers work in general, and offsetting the kinetic drag of a supercharger.

You criticize something not being similar, yet you draw a parallel between road car superchargers, and a Top Fuel dragster?

Top fuel isn't a road car in any stretch, and a multi-thousand horsepower engine that goes a quarter mile at a time from a standing start, with gigantic drag slicks, might just want the ultimate hole-shot power of a positive displacement supercharger larger than most street legal car engines entirely.

Mustang Shelby GT500 is already criticized, Super Snake even moreso, for being dangerous if the driver is the least-bit careless with throttle application, because the tires can't keep the car under control once the engine breaks traction. Probably more violent at breaking traction than a ZL1 Camaro, or an SRT8 Challenger.

Perhaps maybe even less traction than a V10 SRT Viper with the engine and driver more balanced between the front and rear tires, with less of a front weight bias than the Mustang, and truly massive rear tires.

If all one wants is burnouts, and replacing very wide rear tires VERY often... and risking the car careening out of control... have fun with a positive displacement supercharger on an already large-ish V8.

Or, jack up the car on gigantic racing slicks, and keep an expensive Mustang on the drag strip, rather than driving it in the real world, and fish-tailing it into a tree.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 11-02-2012 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:12 AM   #236
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I really like the front end of this old concept that was floating around a few years back:


Unfortunate it never made it into production.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:21 AM   #237
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It's a CaMustang...er a Musmaro?...it looks like a camaro to me.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:38 AM   #238
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I really like the front end of this old concept that was floating around a few years back:

Unfortunate it never made it into production.
It actually did make it to production... that was a concept made by an Italian that ford helped and used as a basis for the current gen mustang (starting with the body after the 1st retro look). Plenty of design queues were taken, and it's good looking! But I bet the next gen mustang will be even better

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Old 11-02-2012, 10:31 AM   #239
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I would be amazed if the BOSS goes FI. The whole selling point behind the car is that it's a N/A Coyote cranked to 11.
The BOSS is being put away for now anyway, after its planned 2-year cycle. According to the latest info/rumors, there will be no BOSS production even in MY 2014, to round out this generation.

I wouldn't expect to see a BOSS re-appear at the beginning of the 2014.5/2015 (whatever they call the new "world car" Stang) run either, as the hype around a total re-design will drive sales of the regular models for a couple years before they start bringing in the SE models, if history serves.

It's interesting, as there's been a SE model to "send off" each generation for the past few; new-edge had the "Mach 1" w/ the shaker hood, and the original retro S197 had the Bullitt cars in 08-09. AFAIK, there's no special editions known for 2014 yet, though there is a unique "Appearance Package" being offered on both V6 & GT cars for '14.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:09 AM   #240
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Just to clarify, in my post about an EcoBoost 5.0, I wasn't saying the Boss should get it. I was really just saying it's a good candidate engine for the next generation GT500. It couldn't hurt since it would really just make the car more fuel efficient than the supercharger setup while maintaining the power and modability it currently has.

I, too, would like to see a special edition come out for either the current or new generation. A new Mach 1 or Bullitt would be pretty cool.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:24 PM   #241
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Caught: 2015 Ford Mustang Packs 5.0-Liter V-8 Engine, Rounded Front End



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Spy shooters got a look under the hood of a 2015 Ford Mustang, and the photos reveal two important pieces of information about the next-generation car. First, it appears the 2015 Ford Mustang will continue to use car’s 5.0-liter V-8 engine, and second, the new car may have a narrower, more curved front end than the current car’s squared-off snout.

The engine in this test car looks identical to the 5.0-liter V-8 that powers the Mustang GT, as evidenced by the intermeshed intake runners and black “Powered by Ford” cylinder-head covers. It’s too early to say whether the engine will receive any upgrades for the next-generation Mustang; the 5.0-liter V-8 currently produces 420 hp and 390 lb-ft of torque in the Mustang GT, while a tuned version in the Boss 302 offers 444 hp and 380 lb-ft.

Even if the 5.0-liter stays in place, Ford will need a base engine for the new Mustang. There’s a possibility the standard 3.7-liter V-6 will stay in place, but other reports suggest Ford may introduce a 2.3-liter turbo-four engine either as an option or to replace the base V-6. The forced-induction engine would not only be more powerful than the current Mustang’s base V-6, with about 320 to 350 hp, but it also should be significantly more fuel efficient.

Another important clue to the design of the new Mustang is the way in which the front of the engine bay tapers toward the center. Whereas the current car and its engine bay have a squared-off front end with almost 90-degree angles at the front corners of the engine bay, the frame rails on this prototype curve inward behind the headlights, and a plastic shroud betrays a front radiator support that makes a continues curve along the front end of the car. That likely signals that the 2015 Ford Mustang will have a rounded front fascia, marking a dramatic styling departure.

Ford engineers have previously told us the new car will adopt the company’s so-called Kinetic 2.0 styling language that is seen on new Ford cars like the 2013 Fusion. That means rounded, curving shapes instead of straight lines. The new Fusion demonstrates a rounded nose with taillights that are mounted at an angle at the edges of the car, and that design direction will likely carry over to the Mustang. Seeing curved, tapering frame rails in this Mustang prototype lends even more credence to suggestions the new car will be styled like the dramatic, swoopy Ford Evos concept that was revealed at the 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show.

A more cramped engine compartment also could pose problems for the massive 5.8-liter supercharged V-8 used in the current Ford Mustang Shelby GT500. Either Ford will use a gigantic shoehorn to fit the big blown engine into the new car’s engine bay, or future high-performance Mustangs must adopt physically smaller (and smaller-displacement) mills.

We’ve already featured prototypes of the 2015 Ford Mustang dressed up as 2013 cars, but closer inspection has revealed the ill-fitting bodywork and awkward proportions of a test car. We also got a look beneath the rear of the new Mustang and learned that it will, as was long rumored, finally ditch its live-axle setup in favor of an independent rear suspension. That will probably be a version of the “Control Blade” arrangement Ford already uses in Australia for the Falcon sedan.

The 2015 Ford Mustang is expected to make its public debut at the 2014 New York auto show. The timing would be fitting, as it would mark the 50th anniversary of the first Mustang’s introduction at the 1964 New York show. Ford also has announced that it will officially sell the next Mustang in Europe; pony-car fans on the Continent currently pay onerous import fees and taxes to bring a Mustang to their shores.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:52 PM   #242
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Spied: 2015 Ford Mustang Sporting an Evos-Inspired Front End

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It’s another day closer to the release of the next Ford Mustang, which means each successive production mule should look closer and closer to the final product. Our spies caught this 2015 Mustang mule driving between Ford testing facilities, showing off the best evidence yet that the next Mustang will look something like the 2011 Ford Evos concept.

So far, the only evidence we’ve shown of the 2015 Ford Mustang being Evos-inspired (that is, with a smaller and curvier front end) were some curved frame rails on a production mule that was otherwise shod in 2013 Mustang body panels. This time, it’s a little bit clearer. Despite wearing a hefty disguise, the mule, as you can see in the shots, has a sloping front end, and small, angular headlights. Behind the camouflage fabric there appears to be two trapezoidal apertures, a large one in front of the radiator, and an inverted opening on the lower front fascia. It’s a familiar pattern: we’ve already seen it on the Evos concept from the 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show, and thousands of 2013 Ford Fusions have already left dealer lots wearing similar shapes on their front ends.

As usual with these shots, it’s anyone’s guess what’s under that body work and camouflage, but we do know from the last set of spy shots that the Evos-inspired 2015 Ford Mustang should be able to fit Ford’s excellent 5.0-liter V-8 engine, although anything larger than that (like the ’13 Shelby GT500′s engine) might be too big for the bay. We’ve also seen the new 2015 Ford Mustang will also ditch the live rear axle in favor of an independent rear suspension. Most Mustang buyers shouldn’t have to worry about that, however, because we’ve long heard that the next-generation ‘Stang may have a turbo-four option along with the typical V-6 and V-8 offerings. That power will–obviously–be sent to the rear wheels through manual or automatic transmissions.

The 2015 Ford Mustang will likely make its debut at the 2014 New York Auto Show–exactly 50 years after its initial debut at the 1964 World’s Fair–which means there’s plenty of time between now and then to see the Mustang as it transforms from its current shape to the next-generation, Kinetic 2.0-styled car. Stay tuned.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:39 PM   #243
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I wonder if GM is going to eventually try a 4V pushrod engine. It's possible, just a bit...awkward from an engineering point of view.
Just go to electronic control of the valves and be done with it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:29 PM   #244
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There are plenty of 4 valve pushrod diesel engines, but obviously they rev much lower and the combustion system is completely different.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:24 AM   #245
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Why do i see Shoop Da Woop.

[IMG][/IMG]

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Old 11-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #246
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I know it's in camo and I shouldn't judge, but I'm not so sure about this now
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:00 PM   #247
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I know it's in camo and I shouldn't judge, but I'm not so sure about this now
Pretty much everything that's visible is the same as the current car.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:53 PM   #248
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Pretty much everything that's visible is the same as the current car.
Agreed, which is why I'm still hoping they haven't fit the final body panels yet or plan to alter them more before release :P.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:59 PM   #249
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I suspect that they're just trying to keep it under wraps by retrofitting as many previous-generation body panels as possible onto the new car. The proportions of that nose seem somehow different from the current generation, and I doubt that they would leave the sides and tail as-is.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:51 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
It actually did make it to production... that was a concept made by an Italian that ford helped and used as a basis for the current gen mustang (starting with the body after the 1st retro look). Plenty of design queues were taken, and it's good looking! But I bet the next gen mustang will be even better

Look back. That car was designed by the same company that did the SVX. Italdesign Giugiaro
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