Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday July 25, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2012, 05:10 PM   #126
izergfx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 308012
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Evil Empire
Vehicle:
C# & Java Devs***
PM me***

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
unless you think 93 makes more power than 100
That's rich coming from the guy comparing gt35's and 3071's and omitting boost data

Obviously it was a typo. If you examine the graphs you can see the 100oct is running a few more psi in the mid range, and is making more power on less boost up top. Assuming they're pushing the knock threshold of 93 on that particular setup, it says good things about the low mount setup..

Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
IMO, the best advertising would have been to build up the car with a standard turbo mount and the same turbo. Dyno it. Then swap on the KillerB remote mount kit with the same turbo, engine, etc, etc. Then dyno that. Compare. Probably wouldn't be too hard to find someone that has a rotated setup that would want to try a remote mount for their current turbo.

Just to be clear, this kit looks awesome. I just don't think these plots are fair comparisons at all.
+1
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
izergfx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 07:18 PM   #127
renosubby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 152576
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno, NV
Vehicle:
2006 STI 10.8@ 129
www.Mayhemtuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
As peviously stated, your choices are bigger turbo with more lag or smaller turbo with less power. There is enough data available to show this, regardless if it's on the exact same car or not, the results will be similar.

And if it was on the same car you'd just say it was on different days, humuidity, etc...
I believe what he is trying to say is that if it were the same car, you could see the difference by swapping the kit, I understand some people will say not same day etc. But then at least it would have been a pretty direct comparison instead of us not knowing the AR etc on the other cars 3071

Cory
renosubby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 07:50 PM   #128
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by renosubby View Post
I believe what he is trying to say is that if it were the same car, you could see the difference by swapping the kit, I understand some people will say not same day etc. But then at least it would have been a pretty direct comparison instead of us not knowing the AR etc on the other cars 3071

Cory
I do too. We already know the 0.82 A/R made +400whp with a few hundred RPMs in additional lag, as would be expected by changing A/R. This still puts the kits over and above other setups currently available, that I am aware of.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 07:56 PM   #129
renosubby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 152576
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno, NV
Vehicle:
2006 STI 10.8@ 129
www.Mayhemtuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I do too. We already know the 0.82 A/R made +400whp with a few hundred RPMs in additional lag, as would be expected by changing A/R. This still puts the kits over and above other setups currently available, that I am aware of.
makes more sense. I agree, this is an amazing kit!
renosubby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 08:38 PM   #130
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Chris is an engineer and not a marketing major. I don't think he begins with how to best market his products which isn't to say he doesn't think about it. I agree that some sort of better comparison data would help to plop down the bucks for this kit, but the design and testing are at least transparent which is more than I can say with other companies who use the term "testing."
Personally I would like to see a standard 3076 thrown on to compare to the other efi logic dyno runs. It would take out the effect of the gtx wheels on the spool and curve and at least allow some correlation between the reduced header volume.

Chris these guys do have a point. The kit won't be cheap, so a bit more effort on the comparison data can help with skepticism. If the pricing were a lot lower I don't think the skepticism would be as great.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 10:10 PM   #131
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Chris is an engineer and not a marketing major. I don't think he begins with how to best market his products which isn't to say he doesn't think about it. I agree that some sort of better comparison data would help to plop down the bucks for this kit, but the design and testing are at least transparent which is more than I can say with other companies who use the term "testing."

Personally I would like to see a standard 3076 thrown on to compare to the other efi logic dyno runs. It would take out the effect of the gtx wheels on the spool and curve and at least allow some correlation between the reduced header volume.


Chris these guys do have a point. The kit won't be cheap, so a bit more effort on the comparison data can help with skepticism. If the pricing were a lot lower I don't think the skepticism would be as great.
You are so right. I'm not much of a salesman and hate the shady BS aspects of sales & marketing. I fully understand how data will sway sales, but the goal wasn't to make a higher quality or better performing version of another rotated kit. It was a kit fully designed in 3D CAD to produce the most ideal turbocharger performance characteristics. Removing over 26" and over 180 of bends was no easy task. It wasn't just a big turbo raised a few inches above the OEM location, because it conveniently fit there, and then made into a production piece.

If the kit doesn't provide higher quality and beter performance vs similarly priced kits (and in some instances much more expensive kits), there's no point for us going into production. As simple as that. So far, a lot of data is pointing in that direction. We'll see.

On the 3076 check out below... Although now that I'm thinking about it I can't recall if this was a GT or GTX and it was also catless :/


Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
The closest thing I could find on 93 pump gas/no meth was an 04 STi with an ATP3076, althought non-catted downpipe. Coincidentally the car has our header on it It made nearly the same whp, but 30ft/lbs less and reached full boost 450RPMs later.




If anyone can find a better comparison please post. I like to use the EFI dyno database because it's huge and where the car/kit was last run. I could not find any 3071 that comes close on 93 pump. Most fall 20+whp/wtq short
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2012, 10:39 PM   #132
KurtP
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44836
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
1999 Fozzy
silver

Default

Car people can be so funny.

"you need to do test xyz to satisfy the skeptics" as if the point hasnt already been pretty proven.

Haters gonna hate. And if you cant grasp the concept that moving the turbo over 2 feet closer to the heads is going to do anything but good things, then I'm not sure any other "test" is going to help you.
KurtP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2012, 11:27 PM   #133
subarutah
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 248428
Join Date: Jun 2010
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Ft. Lewis, Wa (currently)
Vehicle:
2006 STI
FROZEN GREY

Default

is there pricing on this yet so you can sell this to me?
subarutah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 01:10 AM   #134
izergfx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 308012
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Evil Empire
Vehicle:
C# & Java Devs***
PM me***

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtP View Post
Haters gonna hate.


Nobody here is hating dude. If anything, some people being a bit sensitive and defensive.

Here is the 3076 comparison with boost data:
izergfx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 09:30 AM   #135
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

OK so you have a bigger turbo with more lag and less power on less boost. The cars should be tuned to the same margin of safety given the same tuner was used. So for less out-of-pocket you get a bit less performance. We all have budgets so I can understand going this route. BUT...

The way the car is setup now is with the tial 0.63 A/R. It is an absolute BLAST on the street and autocross. Although, it is not the highest HP setup we've had on the car and this is something we will be going back to, the 0.82 A/R.

Here's a plot from the first setup. It had a 44mm WG (now on 38mm), which I suspect was a bit sticky upon opening due to the torque dip you see as it reaches target boost, and it had the 0.82 A/R turbine housing. I know I know, it's not the same dyno and not the same tuner, but butt dyno confirms similar torque, but much more power up top. In fact with the 0.82 A/R we kept pushing the rev limit to 7.500RPMs until power started to taper down. The plots give a resemblance of this as well. For Max power and a car that would see road coarse duty I would without a doubt go with the 0.82 A/R housing or maybe even a 1.06 A/R. Plus we have the GTX3576 with the 0.63 A/R that Garrett tells me will spool like the 3071 with the 0.82 A/R, but make MUCH more power. Well see, still lots more testing to do!

Another benefit to this kit is in its versatility. The ATP turbos we're seeing here in the comparisons have A/R 0.73 IIRC and that's it. So say you're running someone's rotated setup. You have to pull header, up-pipe, down pipe and replace all those gaskets, OR pull the turbo and deal with oil coolant lines plus still changing gaskets. With out kit it should take a lot less time and NO gaskets. I will be doing this in the next few weeks, but if it goes according to plan, it will be 3 V-bands and you can swap the housings. We'll see how smoothly this goes in the coming weeks, but for those running street/track tunes this can be a significant advantage to the kit. Maybe?



While I REALLY enjoy street driving the car with the 3071 I'm not convinced yet that it's going to hit the sweet spot we are looking for, for this kit, on pump anyway. E85 and its a different story, but that's a debate for another day. My point is, this is a work in progress. I really enjoy sharing the info as we go and the feedback from the community. In the end if the kit isn't worth the price of admission, it won't go into production and I'll be able to enjoy it's marginally better performance all by myself
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #136
sabreofsd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48943
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
2004 95%*STi Blu/Gld
www.dcawd.com

Default

I'll definitely be watching this
sabreofsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 01:38 PM   #137
Ultra85
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 160392
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: San Jose, CA
Vehicle:
2005 STi
OBP

Default

Very cool setup! Have you experienced Higher water temps at idle? I would apply this to my dd so sitting at stoplights is a concern. I'm just wondering about heat soak for the radiator possibly because it's so close to the runners/collector? Can't really see how close they are from the pics.

I'd love to see some dyno numbers with built heads, a large 30r, and meth!

Thanks and good luck with progress. Hopefully this will go into production.
Ultra85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 02:15 PM   #138
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

I've been in gridlock passing through a couple cities with temps in the triple digits. The car handled it better than I did The fan cycles off/on just like the OEM setup. Coolant and IAT are so uneventful I don't even log them anymore
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:04 PM   #139
slowmike
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 24890
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: All I wanted was a Pepsi
Vehicle:
2002 Jackwagon
WRB GG

Default

So no AC with this setup?
slowmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 06:54 PM   #140
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

I had a universal condenser in there for a while and the compressor is still there. It was never hooked up. In the begining I was taking it apart often and ended up removing the condenser just because it was always in the way. It could go back in at any time. The only thing left to be done was make an adapter to go from the Suby lines to the universal condenser fitting. I tried searching for an off-the-shelf adapter, but can't seem to find one
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 01:09 PM   #141
askey35
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 273803
Join Date: Feb 2011
Vehicle:
04 STI
WRB

Default

Any idea on when the GTX3576-R will be fitted for testing?

Also any estimated ETA for production or it is still way to early?

This looks like promising option to the current choices. Good work!
askey35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 01:45 PM   #142
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Working on the details for building the motor to handle the 3576. The dimesions of the 3576 are exactly the same as the 3071, so it should fit like a glove
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #143
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Guys sorry for the delay on updates. I'm working on finalizing the details on the build. The engine will be built to handle more power than this kit will put out, with relaibility and rebuildability in mind. No performance enhancing will be done to the block/heads, besides stronger components, to assure we are only measuring kit performance.

In the mean time I'm still driving the car (a lot more than our 2012) and it's still a blast on the street.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 09:59 PM   #144
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Assuming that this isn't your daily driver, it seems cheaper to just let the current block go as to make the kind of power you're expecting requires a better fuel system. I think everyone here is smart enough to know that if the sleeves let go it's not going to be a problem with the kit itself.

I can't wait for the 3576 as I'll at least be able to see the delta from the 2 turbos since all else will remain the same. I'm really liking the gtx3071 in .63 though.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 12:59 PM   #145
c0rehax
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 197363
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: pg 831
Default

Chris, it was nice talking with you the other day and appreciate the fast responses.. I'm on board with this prototype setup and cant wait for the results of the 35r... i really hope this hits production... this makes me very interested as well and cant wait to see the results..

"Plus we have the GTX3576 with the 0.63 A/R that Garrett tells me will spool like the 3071 with the 0.82 A/R, but make MUCH more power."
c0rehax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 08:09 AM   #146
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Assuming that this isn't your daily driver, it seems cheaper to just let the current block go as to make the kind of power you're expecting requires a better fuel system. I think everyone here is smart enough to know that if the sleeves let go it's not going to be a problem with the kit itself.

I can't wait for the 3576 as I'll at least be able to see the delta from the 2 turbos since all else will remain the same. I'm really liking the gtx3071 in .63 though.
Well that's not an entirely correct assumption. The shop has this 2005 and a 2012 STi. I would say 7 out of 10 times I will always pick the 05 It's just way more fun! Part of the importance of the kit is everyday drivability. I commute, go to the post office, run erands, pick the kids up from school, and even take the wife out for a decent meal once in a while in this car. If the project produced an annoying level of lag it would have been dropped long ago. I'm a firm believe in cars made to be DRIVEN and if that aspect isn't fun, there's no point.

On the engine I was on the fence for a while on this, but I'd rather play it safe and not have an engine failure on the dyno. The short block will be pulled inspected and put into the 2012 for another similar project (shhh, don't tell anyone), and a fresh sleeved block will be put into the 05 that will be made for ~800whp that it will likely never see. We plan on tearing it down ever 20K or so as I am testing some other secret stuff and want to check progress and the general health of the engine to avoid unplanned failure.

I've considering a few option on fuel. I'm not overly concerned on 93 pump, but race gas and E85 will definitely requre something. Since the car will live on pump and only be tested on race/E85 we may just rig something temporary on the pump side of things, but I'm still thinking things through.

In all honesty I really like the GTX3071-R (0.63 A/R) as a street only setup. OEM-ish drivability with a whole lot more go-go. The one downside (if you can call it that) is the throttle is much more sensitive to throttle inputs. Or as my wife puts it, an on/off switch. It took her some time to get used to gentle inputs on the throttle, wheras the 0.82 A/R had just enough lag where you could dip into it some and accelerate in a more predictable manner

I too am really looking forward to the GTX3576-R results too

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rehax View Post
Chris, it was nice talking with you the other day and appreciate the fast responses.. I'm on board with this prototype setup and cant wait for the results of the 35r... i really hope this hits production... this makes me very interested as well and cant wait to see the results..

"Plus we have the GTX3576 with the 0.63 A/R that Garrett tells me will spool like the 3071 with the 0.82 A/R, but make MUCH more power."
Nice speaking with you as well! So far there is no reason it shouldn't hit production. It's been a long road and I tend to take things like this slow and cautiously. Last thing I want is to release a product that isn't time tested.

On the GTX3576-R, that's what garrett tells me. I've even gone back and said "are you sure?" more than once We'll see
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 05:42 PM   #147
Drewbie
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 309709
Join Date: Feb 2012
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Utah
Vehicle:
99 Rs coupe

Default

^ love this post.. I'm anxiously awaiting!
Drewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 07:23 AM   #148
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Thanks!

We're still driving and working up a plan for the build and turbo.

In the mean time we're throwing around another idea for a different version of this setup improving the potential even more, but it's just an idea at this point so I don't want to tease anymore than we already have here.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 10:41 AM   #149
Irv Weissmanhowerton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 278519
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Area P, Alliance Fab
Vehicle:
30r STI
Phatbotti Tuning

Default

Im sure this is a question for perrin, but would you think I could simply swap the turbo on my 30r old school (meaning not 3" at hotside) perrin turbo kit? to a 3576? for one to fit the piping, and if that worked, I feel bad swapping my pretty much brand new turbo, but that would be nice, is there any interchangable parts on the 3076? (ie, center cartridge, hotside, or compressor housing?

thanks
Irv Weissmanhowerton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 12:59 PM   #150
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

I'm mostly familiar with the GTX series, but I think the hot side you can put a different housing on (in this case the Tial). I've heard different things on the CHRA, but never confirmed one way or the other since we've only been using the GTX series. I do know for a fact the compressor housings are different, and not swapable.

My guess is that you could use that turbo with the Tial housing and if you sent us the compressor housing, to modify it for the inlet, you'd be good. Maybe
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.