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Old 11-04-2012, 01:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Most importantly, at least for someone still shell-shocked from the gasoline shortages all around Long Island post Hurricane Sandy, is that a CNG vehicle could offer freedom from the whole "gasoline grid", as it were.

In other words, if I had a CNG-capable vehicle, a home CNG VRA, and either electricity service intact or a generator (+/- NG itself) I could give a big ol' honey badger style **** you to the rest of New Yorkers scrambling for gas.

I like that idea, yes I do.
This, gentle readers, is a textbook example of a knee-jerk reaction.

Something inconvenient happens once every 10 or 20 years: Make every week from here on in an expensive source of frustration.

Yes, I see the LOL smilie.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:21 PM   #27
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This, gentle readers, is a textbook example of a knee-jerk reaction.

Something inconvenient happens once every 10 or 20 years: Make every week from here on in an expensive source of frustration.

Yes, I see the LOL smilie.
It'd probably be a saner idea than my prior semi-serious plan, of a 14 mpg 3-ton luxury SUV. Even with home VRA priced into the equation 5-year TCO for the most ginormous of the CNG vehicles, the Ram 2500 CNG, would be significantly lower than that Lexus LX, subject of the above-linked thread.

As I put it in an earlier post elsewhere:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Rather than getting brand cachet and supple leather in exchange for my chunk of change I'd instead get a huge piece of American iron, cheap ongoing operating costs, the convenience of being able to refuel overnight at my own house, and the ability to get me and my family around even as the rest of the vehicles on the road ground to a halt.

I think that's worth something.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Integra96
Any decent cnw cars out there?
Actually, if you're still around SLC a Civic Natural Gas may well be the cheapest commuting car for you, that is if you're still into being cheap now that you're an attending.

Utah has cheap CNG plus incentives, I hear.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #29
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I convert vehicles from Gasoline to Compressed natural gas.

All the 'kits' that we use are EPA certified, installed by cng certified technicians, and inspected by a CSA CNG Fuel system inspector. All installations must be in compliance of CGA 6.4, NFPA 52, as well as Federal and State laws implemented for each system. The inspection process is rigorous and certifies the vehicle for road use.

Without this inspection, the vehicle isn't 'certified' for road use and shouldn't be on the road.

Neglect to obtain these required inspections (every 3 years / 36,000 miles) or fail to follow the guidlines in NFPA 52 / CGA 6.4, etc... and your the fines will be very hefty; http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/5966

The costs aren't cheap by any means. Type 4 composite tanks are the top of the line fuel tank for CNG Vehicles. Many manufacturers have sought ways of reducing the cost of the cylinder, however, the amount of carbon fiber / high strength composite liner used will keep the costs of cylinders high until more competition is present to drive the price down.

We do convert Ford Escapes (2010 - 2012), Chevrolet Impala's (2009-2011), Econoline vans, ford crown victorias, F-150 / 250 / 550 trucks, among others.

- We also convert buses, limos', town cars, utility trucks, as well as other vehicles we have EPA certificates for.

- Each build has variants, pricing options, add-on packages, etc. curtailed to the customer's needs.

I in no way see this as a 'plug' for the company I work for, however, I'm glad people are even looking into the prospect of switching over to CNG.

There are several products on the horizon that will definitely reduce the costs of conversions and home fueling stations, however for now, our main customers are those that would be looking at recouping the cost of the conversions within the first year.

As far as the comparison of range / power / etc., the power numbers are 90% the horsepower level of gasoline, mostly due to the fact that the BTU's aren't as high.

Range: Roughly the same as normal gasoline, however, due to the large amount of space that cylinders take up in comparison to liquid gasoline tanks, you're looking at compromising some storage space depending on the vehicle of course.

Gas cost: CNG is available via fast fill stations, usually from $2.69 per GGE and below depending upon the city you're in. It takes roughly the same amount of time to fill your cylinder(s) at a fast fill cng pump as it does to fill up your car with unleaded gasoline.

CNG Prices have not changed at all in Chicago (since April of this year) when I started working at our conversion facility... Gasoline prices however, have been all over the place.

Cylinders used to have a standard life of 10 years, which was then bumped up to 15 years, while now newer type 4 cylinders have 20 years of use before they reach their expiration date. Older cylinders were capable of 3000 psi then were standardized to 3600 psi.

You can fill a 3000 psi cylinder at a 3000 psi cng pump, and a 3600 psi cylinder on a 3000 psi pump, but you can't fill a 3000 psi cylinder at a 3600 psi pump station. Standardization of fuel nozzles have prevented that, and most new age systems are all to the current 3600 psi standard...

Sorry for the wall of text, there's tons of information being missed here, and I'd love to answer questions you guys might have.

Its a great business to be in, with much to be learned. This isn't a new industry, and we've come a very long way from where we were in say, the 80's and 90's... the next 10 years is going to be very interesting for the NGV business.

Last edited by deathinacan; 11-04-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:44 PM   #30
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At least when it goes, you'll feel no pain.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:50 PM   #31
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At least when it goes, you'll feel no pain.
that... is scary as hell, and just waiting for disaster to strike...
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:55 PM   #32
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WV has a $7500 tax credit for new CNG vehicles. Insane.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:00 PM   #33
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There's a lot of things regulations-wise the US could do to help out the CNG vehicle industry. It is a shame this wasn't done 20 years ago.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:09 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathinacan
I convert vehicles from Gasoline to Compressed natural gas..

Sorry for the wall of text, there's tons of information being missed here, and I'd love to answer questions you guys might have.
Please feel free to correct misinformation in my own wall of text above. It's a big topic, as I've found out the past few days.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:12 PM   #35
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Actually, if you're still around SLC a Civic Natural Gas may well be the cheapest commuting car for you, that is if you're still into being cheap now that you're an attending.

Utah has cheap CNG plus incentives, I hear.
CNG seems prevalent here, but I don't have any statistics. Since I only drive a few thousand miles per year I'm not really interested; there are some locals with the Civic NG, including Rocky Anderson.

And I think I'm even cheaper now as an attending - the ol' debt mountain is large and imposing.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:24 PM   #36
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just in case any of you are wondering... I think CNG is


Propane is profane.

My friend had a F150 a few years back that had a large propane/CNG tank in the bed and he used it only when cruising and often didn't bother. The power dropped by a fair bit and the cost savings wasn't that high. His brother apparently bought it due to a temporary hardon and low propane prices back then. Easier to just refine your own petrol from all-natural benzene trees growing in your back yard.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:25 PM   #37
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WV has a $7500 tax credit for new CNG vehicles. Insane.
That's nothing -

Some states had (key word 'had' because so many people jumped the bandwagon the funds ran out very quickly) green fleets programs where the only thing a vehicle owner would have to do is buy the vehicle, the government would pay for the conversion.

http://www.illinoisgreenfleets.org/

For every $1.00 that Obama, yes, Obama, has approved for 'green fleet' /clean cities program that paid for the conversions in our company, we've produced $4.00 of private company funds. ... the demand will only go up from here.

The amount of jobs produced from the 'natural gas' boom is phenomenal, and it is in the best interests of the federal government to fund this boom as much as possible.

advantages -

- domestically produced fuel supply
- 100+ years of domestic supplies (of known shale gas deposits)
- alternate natural gas fuel sources are 'replenishable' ie: methane farms, garbage dumps, septic systems with high methane, etc.
- besides high pressure delivery lines and storage cylinders, a conversion requires very little modification to the OEM components of conventional vehicles.
- reduced greenhouse gas emissions
- very little change to range, performance ( on newer vehicle conversions )
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:34 PM   #38
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I know that conversion is simple, but are there missing gains that could be had from an engine designed to run CNG? compression, cams etc.?
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:41 PM   #39
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I know that conversion is simple, but are there missing gains that could be had from an engine designed to run CNG? compression, cams etc.?
Most of the things we see is that people have a hard time understanding the non-linear release of the cng versus the use of liquid gas.

From 'Full' to half tank, it depletes rather quickly, then from just above half a tank, it will stabilize and hold pressure before reducing to 1/3 - 1/4 of a tank.

CNG is roughly 130 octane, although contains a lower BTU, so timing is changed to compensate with the higher running temperatures, as well as the lack of a liquid fuel in the combustion chamber to cool the valves / valve seats.

Honestly, I can't tell a big difference between a CNG Escape and a Regular Gasoline Escape. The 2.5L 4 cylinder gets up and goes quickly, without a fuss, and can go plenty fast as well.

The mileage is the same if not better than gasoline depending on where you're located ( elevation, temperature, etc.).

... and no, you're not 'gaining' if you change the engine to a CNG specific application. Some cars have 'soft' heads, and require the installation of harder valve seats to ensure that the valve doesn't recess into the head due to high combustion temperatures and lack of a liquid fuel to cool the components in the head.

Most modern cars don't need the hardened seats as they're already good to go and efficient as possible... its been awhile since the United States produced a soft headed leaded gasoline car...

Engines have come a long way since then, and even so, hardened valves seats aren't an expensive addition in case you feel that you need an added layer of engine protection.

Last edited by deathinacan; 11-04-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAWD
I know that conversion is simple, but are there missing gains that could be had from an engine designed to run CNG? compression, cams etc.?
Stoichiometric for cng is around 16 iirc and compression can be higher. See Civic changes.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Stoichiometric for cng is around 16 iirc and compression can be higher. See Civic changes.


If you're in a bind with not many CNG stations in your area, you can always go with a bi-fuel setup, and run gasoline when you need to.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:40 PM   #42
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Most cars in Pakistan are bi-fuel. The CNG conversion is aftermarket and always scared me. Terrified of the idea of a giant pressurized tank in your trunk.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:43 PM   #43
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Most cars in Pakistan are bi-fuel. The CNG conversion is aftermarket and always scared me. Terrified of the idea of a giant pressurized tank in your trunk.
Not really too much worse than a tank of flammable liquid that can easily ignite on a whole bunch of hot components under the car.

Modern US-approved tanks are well designed to resist explosion even from a direct hit and you could further protect the people via something like a kevlar containment cover over the tank.

It's just about what people are familiar with. Lets not get into the danger of li-ion battery packs lining the floor.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:44 PM   #44
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Most cars in Pakistan are bi-fuel. The CNG conversion is aftermarket and always scared me. Terrified of the idea of a giant pressurized tank in your trunk.
Pakistan has very little oversight on their installation, and accidents involving explosions are very common there.

In the united states, CNG is the safest transportation fuel on the road today.


this is an older video, 3000 psi cylinder testing, but still plays true to testing standards for 3600 psi type 3 cylinders.

I don't think type 4 full composite cylinders were in the market just yet when this video was taken.

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Old 11-04-2012, 05:59 PM   #45
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Cool video. I fail to see why these tanks would be less inherently safe than a container full of 15 gallons of gasoline underneath your backseat passengers.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:19 PM   #46
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The VW cab that ran me at 150 kph from Frankfurt to Ramstein recently was a CNG-powered people carrier. We actually had to stop and fuel up. It uses gasoline to start and then switches over to CNG. It didn't feel terribly fast, but it had no problem flying down zee autobahn.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:35 PM   #47
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because liquid gas is what we're used to.

Compressed gas is very alien to people, so anything we don't understand we tend to just shy away from...

I recall meeting a girl a while back from oregon that had a mental breakdown in Washington state when she had to pump her own fuel... That was pretty astonishing to realize that some people out there have no idea how to pump their own gas.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:53 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by deathinacan View Post
because liquid gas is what we're used to.

Compressed gas is very alien to people, so anything we don't understand we tend to just shy away from...

I recall meeting a girl a while back from oregon that had a mental breakdown in Washington state when she had to pump her own fuel... That was pretty astonishing to realize that some people out there have no idea how to pump their own gas.
I grew up in OR, and my first car was a '64 Chevy truck that had the gas tank behind the driver's seat. inside the cab. If you overfilled the tank, the cab would fill with fumes and stink like hell for days. I wanted to smack every gas station attendant that would still top up the tank even after I told them not to.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:02 PM   #49
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Yeah, I really do not like going through oregon just for that reason. this 'mini-serve' crap really gets on my nerves... especially when they expect some form of a tip or something.

Total waste of man power and money if you ask me. Surprised they haven't passed legislation getting rid of mini-service already.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by soldmyboxster
The VW cab that ran me at 150 kph from Frankfurt to Ramstein recently was a CNG-powered people carrier. We actually had to stop and fuel up. It uses gasoline to start and then switches over to CNG. It didn't feel terribly fast, but it had no problem flying down zee autobahn.
That's what the factory bi-fuel pickups now for sale here do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2012/10/first-drive-2013-ram-hd-2500-cng.html
The system starts with gasoline if the engine and coolant temperature is below 50-degrees Fahrenheit then moves to CNG once the parameters are met.
They also dynoed the engine as being down 12% HP, 10% torque when running on cng vs gas. As it started out with 383 and 400 HP and ft-lbs, respectively, it still has enough to merge safely, I'd wager.
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