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Old 11-04-2012, 05:12 PM   #201
baseballdbk1
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI
ok just trying to give you some info from my personal experience to help you avoid anything like it happening again.
Greatly appreciate bcz I had to go through the process on my first built longblock with my 05 sit but can assure it was properly broke in :-)
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:05 PM   #202
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I would call Headgames and ask them what they think causes this.



Building a big HP Subaru is not like building anything else.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:27 PM   #203
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My boy warwagon had a kelford snap on him like you. it was a 282. wore the bucket right down. it happens, they blamed the bucket an wouldn't send him a replacement.
FWIW my kelford data sheet said to breakin the cams for 20mins at 2000rpm.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:20 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
I would call Headgames and ask them what they think causes this.



Building a big HP Subaru is not like building anything else.
TPG Tuning has plenty of experience building big HP 4G63s. How is a Subaru any different? I mean, they're both turbo 4 cylinder engines...right?
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:29 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by MRF582
TPG Tuning has plenty of experience building big HP 4G63s. How is a Subaru any different? I mean, they're both turbo 4 cylinder engines...right?
Just an FYI, the block for the motor that was in Daves car was built by Vigilant and the heads were built by Moore Performance.

The cams were broken in properly as previously stated. We also use a comp cam breakin additive similar to what is used in a flat tappet domestic engine for cam breakin.

And your right. this isant our first rodeo :-). We have built many high HP EJs and they are obviously a different animal compared to a 4G63.

We look forward to firing Daves car up this week and getting it back on the road!

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:09 AM   #206
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TPG Tuning has plenty of experience building big HP 4G63s. How is a Subaru any different? I mean, they're both turbo 4 cylinder engines...right?
I am not sure if you have a personal problem with them or not. My post wasn't meant to be used as a negative comment.

I was telling the OP to call a shop that has built some of the best cylinder heads across all platforms and maybe gain some insight. I posted my own findings, from a place that built record setters... They didn't build the Subaru heads right... Plain and simple
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:26 AM   #207
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I am not sure if you have a personal problem with them or not. My post wasn't meant to be used as a negative comment.

I was telling the OP to call a shop that has built some of the best cylinder heads across all platforms and maybe gain some insight. I posted my own findings, from a place that built record setters... They didn't build the Subaru heads right... Plain and simple
Don't mind him Junior.

I understand you were not trying to be negative
You are just trying to give some advice and point me in the right direction so thank you for that!

Just wondering though, why do you think they did not build the heads right?
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:05 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ

I am not sure if you have a personal problem with them or not. My post wasn't meant to be used as a negative comment.

I was telling the OP to call a shop that has built some of the best cylinder heads across all platforms and maybe gain some insight. I posted my own findings, from a place that built record setters... They didn't build the Subaru heads right... Plain and simple
He's a keyboard warrior Junior, just looking for attention.

Thanks for chiming in, haven't talked to ya in awhile! Have you seen a bucket / lobe failure like this? All the other lobes and lifters looked great. The heads were noisy from the get go which could have been from way to much valve lash. However, I would think the wear would be more consistent across the heads.

Thanks for any insight!

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:42 AM   #209
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The cams were broken in properly as previously stated.
Obviously not!

Not enough valve lash causes the valve to not seat properly once the engine is up to temp, overheat and burn a valve, especially an exhaust valve. The bucket/retainer/valve stem is fine. Like this:

This is NOT what you saw.

I can't believe the cause of this bucket failure is even up for debate! Attempted CYA at its finest... Also love the retroactive 'Oh yeah, we broke the cam in properly'...

Anyway, I've completed my moral obligation to call BS when I see it. Good luck with the next engine.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:00 AM   #210
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Obviously not!

Not enough valve lash causes the valve to not seat properly once the engine is up to temp, overheat and burn a valve, especially an exhaust valve. The bucket/retainer/valve stem is fine.
Correct. However; too much valve lash causes valvetrain noise, more load on valvetrain components, and excessive wear.

Do you have personal experience with this or did you just read that on the Internet somewhere too?

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:37 AM   #211
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Because I didn't want to learn this lesson the hard way through 1st hand experience, I read it in a book in a library. Is that a credible source whereas a tech article or book on the Internet is not? But what does it matter where I got the information, as long as it's correct? Anyway, I don't want to waste my time going off-topic about this. Your attempt to discredit me even when I've said nothing wrong is cowardly, and futile.

How much is 'too much' valve lash that could cause damage like this? On a Subaru DOHC engine, you have to install the camshafts after the head is bolted to the block. That means, whoever installed the cams should've checked the clearances. It sounds like TPG Tuning installed the cams when they assembled the engine. What did they measure the valve lash to be?
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:59 AM   #212
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How much is 'too much' valve lash that could cause damage like this? On a Subaru DOHC engine, you have to install the camshafts after the head is bolted to the block. That means, whoever installed the cams should've checked the clearances. It sounds like TPG Tuning installed the cams when they assembled the engine. What did they measure the valve lash to be?
We received the block and heads separate and assembled. We did not recheck valve lash as it was checked and set by Moore Performance and their machine shop. The cams were removed, heads bolts to block, and cams reinstalled without removing the buckets. We have never had issues with their heads before and have always worked very well, they have a great package.

Recommended valve lash is .008" intake and .010" exhaust. Another possible issue is that the old head was built using used buckets. It is often recommended that you use new Subaru buckets with new cams, especially larger lift/duration ones like these big Kelfords. Because of this, Daves new heads have 16 new Subaru buckets.

Our cam breakin procedure is 1800-2200 rpm idle for 20mins with 30w Brad Penn Breakin oil and Comp Cams flat tappet additive.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:12 AM   #213
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We received the block and heads separate and assembled. We did not recheck valve lash as it was checked and set by Moore Performance and their machine shop. The cams were removed, heads bolts to block, and cams reinstalled without removing the buckets.
Your suppose to readjust the valve lash once the head is bolted to the block since things move around once tq
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #214
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We received the block and heads separate and assembled. We did not recheck valve lash as it was checked and set by Moore Performance and their machine shop. The cams were removed, heads bolts to block, and cams reinstalled without removing the buckets. We have never had issues with their heads before and have always worked very well, they have a great package.

Recommended valve lash is .008" intake and .010" exhaust. Another possible issue is that the old head was built using used buckets. It is often recommended that you use new Subaru buckets with new cams, especially larger lift/duration ones like these big Kelfords. Because of this, Daves new heads have 16 new Subaru buckets.

Our cam breakin procedure is 1800-2200 rpm idle for 20mins with 30w Brad Penn Breakin oil and Comp Cams flat tappet additive.
OK, so you admit to not spending the full one minute it takes to verify valve lash. I'm sure it was fine but it just shows your lack of due diligence to check something so simple. This is not very confidence inspiring for a company that claims to build high HP Subaru engines. When so much time and money is at stake, as it is with such high profile builds, why cut corners on something so simple?

Also, thanks for retroactively updating your cam break-in procedure. It should prevent future failures like this. You must've updated it just recently since I have an eyewitness source who saw your cam break-in procedure on another local car a few months ago and it was nothing like holding ~2000RPM for 20 minutes. Hopefully, that car has a less aggresive cam profile so it doesn't suffer the same fate as this one.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by TPG Tuning View Post
He's a keyboard warrior Junior, just looking for attention.

Thanks for chiming in, haven't talked to ya in awhile! Have you seen a bucket / lobe failure like this? All the other lobes and lifters looked great. The heads were noisy from the get go which could have been from way to much valve lash. However, I would think the wear would be more consistent across the heads.

Thanks for any insight!

Nate
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Hey Nate,

That is my picture I posted. Was a problem with the assembly/clearances on the head. I don't remember the exact reason, but I know Dave explained it to me and built me some proper heads
Funny part was that was the 2nd set of cams on the same heads, the last set of cams "were a bad batch", and they were denting the buckets but I caught it in time... Bought new cams, buckets and ended up with a pile of junk again.

Jr
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:43 AM   #216
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Your suppose to readjust the valve lash once the head is bolted to the block since things move around once tq
This is correct, however it is usually less than a .001". We have seen the most change using SuperTech components FWIW.

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #217
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OK, so you admit to not spending the full one minute it takes to verify valve lash. I'm sure it was fine but it just shows your lack of due diligence to check something so simple. This is not very confidence inspiring for a company that claims to build high HP Subaru engines. When so much time and money is at stake, as it is with such high profile builds, why cut corners on something so simple?
This is why we trust our machine shop and Moore Performance. I could disassemble the entire cylinder head here and check valve guide clearance, valve seat contact patch, valve install height, spring installed height etc, but it would defeat the purpose of paying someone else to do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Also, thanks for retroactively updating your cam break-in procedure. It should prevent future failures like this. You must've updated it just recently since I have an eyewitness source who saw your cam break-in procedure on another local car a few months ago and it was nothing like holding ~2000RPM for 20 minutes. Hopefully, that car has a less aggresive cam profile so it doesn't suffer the same fate as this one.
Not sure who your "eyewitness" is lol. EVERY car we build here at our shop is broken in this way. Which car are you referring too?

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:50 AM   #218
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Hey Nate,

That is my picture I posted. Was a problem with the assembly/clearances on the head. I don't remember the exact reason, but I know Dave explained it to me and built me some proper heads
Funny part was that was the 2nd set of cams on the same heads, the last set of cams "were a bad batch", and they were denting the buckets but I caught it in time... Bought new cams, buckets and ended up with a pile of junk again.

Jr
Thanks Jr! I'm assuming you broke the cams in correctly and the problem was in the head and not the break-in procedure?

I'll give Dave a call and chat!

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:10 PM   #219
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This is why we trust our machine shop and Moore Performance. I could disassemble the entire cylinder head here and check valve guide clearance, valve seat contact patch, valve install height, spring installed height etc, but it would defeat the purpose of paying someone else to do the same.
Are you seriously trying to compare something that takes one minute and is totally non-invasive to something that can take hours and requires invasive disassembly?

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Not sure who your "eyewitness" is lol. EVERY car we build here at our shop is broken in this way. Which car are you referring too?

Nate
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Car with license plate 'LOL V8'. It was a car not built by you but started up for the 1st time and tuned by you. On that particular car, you did not follow the proper cam break in procedure. Of course, you will say you did as it's quite easy to lie on the internet. So to anyone reading, it is my word versus yours. No proof to actually prove what happened.


Anyway, so where are you guys at with your root cause of failure analysis? Let's play along and say the cam was broken in properly. Let's also say the valve lash was within spec. So what caused this failure? What is TPG Tuning placing the blame on?
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:21 PM   #220
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Car with license plate 'LOL V8'. It was a car not built by you but started up for the 1st time and tuned by you. On that particular car, you did not follow the proper cam break in procedure.
I drove out to flash a map in this car so that the shop could start it and break the engine in for the customer. You would have to ask them how they broke in the cam/engine etc as it was not done here. I thought you were tuning cars for them or couldn't you figure that one out?

Needless to say we had it here on our dyno a week ago and made 400whp on E85 and a 20g, seems as though its working well for him.

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Anyway, so where are you guys at with your root cause of failure analysis? Let's play along and say the cam was broken in properly. Let's also say the valve lash was within spec. So what caused this failure? What is TPG Tuning placing the blame on?
I'm not placing the blame on anyone; However, we assembled and tuned the car here and it is our responsibility to make this right for Dave, regardless of what or who was at fault. We are grateful to have Dave as a customer and are fixing these heads for him AND trying to find out what exactly caused the failure. Our #1 concern is the customer, not to satisfy you as you never were and most likely will not be one :-). Dave can attest to or customer service I'm sure.

As Jr previously stated he had a similar issue and HeadGames helped him out with correcting the problem. I'm on the phone with them right now to gain some insight.

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #221
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I drove out to flash a map in this car so that the shop could start it and break the engine in for the customer. You would have to ask them how they broke in the cam/engine etc as it was not done here. I though you were tuning cars for them or couldn't you figure that one out?
Huh? I don't tune cars for a living because I work as an Engineer from 9 to 5 on weekdays. I thought you knew that?

You arrived on location, flashed a map to the car, started it for the first time, and drove it out of there. You did not break the cam in properly before doing so. But I am glad to hear you no longer do that!

But yes, you are 100% correct about one thing; I will never be a customer of yours.


Anyway, this thread is about Dave K's car. So let's get back on topic. Let's see what Junior has to say. Earlier he said he couldn't remember what the exact problem was but let's see if your conversation with him can conjure up forgotten memories and get a possible root cause of failure.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:53 PM   #222
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Huh? I don't tune cars for a living because I work as an Engineer from 9 to 5 on weekdays. I thought you knew that?

You arrived on location, flashed a map to the car, started it for the first time, and drove it out of there. You did not break the cam in properly before doing so.
You should really get your facts straight before running your mouth behind your keyboard. The car was on the lift when I got there and I didn't drive the car, infact it never left the lift as it was blocked in by another car. It had an oil or coolant leak of some sort if I recall. It was an OpenSource car so I offered, free of charge, to drive out to this shop and flash a map so that the shop could break the car in.

Ironically, Dave (the op) was WITH me that day at this shop .

Nate
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:08 PM   #223
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You arrived on location, flashed a map to the car, started it for the first time, and drove it out of there.
You did not break the cam in properly before doing so. But I am glad to hear you no longer do that!
Bull****!

i was actually there with Nate when he put the base map on Adam's car and what you just said is a blatant lie! His car never left Joe's garage so you need to get your facts straight sir! You apparently have a personal problem with people who do not agree with your POV which is very sad...

YOU ARE THE LIAR AND NEED TO CHECK WITH RYAN, DALE AND JOE BEFORE POSTING FALSE FACTS ON AN OPEN FORUM WHEN THEY EVEN KNOW, THAT WHAT YOU JUST STATED NEVER TOOK PLACE AT ANY POINT IN TIME!

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Old 11-05-2012, 01:40 PM   #224
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Nate has been nothing less than amazing with helping me through this entire build and I can never thank him enough for that!

Yes, what happen to the car is an unfortunate event to the process of this build but that is the risk one has to be willing to take when heavy modifying a car the way that Nate and I have been doing with my sti but I was aware of this long before starting this build...

Neither myself nor Nate are blaming anyone for what has happen and he has helped me out so much to prevent something like this from happening again!

I have stated throughout the build that I am not worried about finding someone to blame and my only goal is to get the car back up and running so we(Nate & I) can both show the great deal of work that has been put into this build by making some amazing power, then backing up those numbers by taking it to the track for some fast passes!

You are starting a witch hunt when there is in fact no witch!

As Nate and Junior are already discussing, Junior himself has had head problems in the past which were taken care of after the fact and that is what I am going through now...

You are a "want-to-be-tuner" who has never build a high power car, but apparently knows everything about subarus and cars in general because you have felt the need to argue with those that have been in the business so much longer than you such as Phil @ Element Tuning, Killer-B Motorpsorts over manifold design, etc. but you have neither built an engine (at least that I am aware of) or designed an exhaust manifold(Unless you secretly designed them for Moore Performance and Ryan never informed me or Nate), so please feel free to voice your opinion when you do something with any relevance to the high performance automotive field!

Good Day Sir!

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Old 11-05-2012, 02:39 PM   #225
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You should really get your facts straight before running your mouth behind your keyboard. The car was on the lift when I got there and I didn't drive the car, infact it never left the lift as it was blocked in by another car. It had an oil or coolant leak of some sort if I recall. It was an OpenSource car so I offered, free of charge, to drive out to this shop and flash a map so that the shop could break the car in.

Ironically, Dave (the op) was WITH me that day at this shop .

Nate
TPG
OK, if the car never left the garage then I apologize for assuming as such. However, you did flash a map on the car and were the first one to start it. The responsibility of cam break in rests on the one who firsts starts the car. That was you.

baseballdbk1, your assumptions about my history with performance Subaru engines are incorrect. Also, you may want to see your doctor about a prescription for Xanax or some other type of relaxant.
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