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Old 11-05-2012, 02:41 PM   #51
delongedoug
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
You're missing the point.

Are any of these tranmissions fast? - Yes
Are they faster than 3 pedal manuals? - Yes
Are they more consistant? - Yes
Do they impress the friends of the more-money-than-brains people who don't track these things? - Yes



Are they more fun? **** no.
Tell me about it. Power steering is such a ridiculous gimmick to make driving easier to people with more money than skills. ABS will never catch on! I modulate threshold braking at 10/10ths constantly because driving on the limit is where you'll find me. Flat out!
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by delongedoug View Post
Tell me about it. Power steering is such a ridiculous gimmick to make driving easier to people with more money than skills. ABS will never catch on! I modulate threshold braking at 10/10ths constantly because driving on the limit is where you'll find me. Flat out!
HA,

many take the ABS off the race cars because of feel, and unpredictatbility with R compounds and T/C fooling slip angles.

Flat out baby!
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:54 PM   #53
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Outside of the acceleration improvement DCT's offer something that often gets forgotten is that it's expensive and difficult to manufacture manual transmissions for high horsepower cars and still retain smooth shifting people are used to on cars like Civics. Look at all the GT500's and Corvette owner complaints about the Tremec transmissions being balky and grinding. The Ford/Getrag 6-speed for the 420 hp Mustang is a frequent source of complaint from Mustang owners compared to automatic owners.

Having all the power of the GTR with AWD traction I imagine a lot of owners would destroy manual transmissions and fry their clutches after a couple of launches. Manual transmissions really haven't progressed as fast as automatics and DCT's. A lot of them wether it be in a Mustang, Genesis Coup, 370Z, EVO, or whatever still suck and the problem is that engines are making more power and torque all the time making it easier to shift to DCT's that can be programmed to maintain performance and reliability.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:11 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post

0.3 seconds! That does not hold up well to magazine racers at all.
That means a guy with a DSG equipped car can get to work 0.3 seconds faster than a guy with a Manual equipped car. I mean that is a HUGE difference.
Actually not exactly 0.3 secs... That rate of travel vs time traveled vs distance traveled thing... I don't feel like trying the math but it's probably +/-0.01 secs. Huge dif!
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:41 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by delongedoug View Post
Tell me about it. Power steering is such a ridiculous gimmick to make driving easier to people with more money than skills. ABS will never catch on! I modulate threshold braking at 10/10ths constantly because driving on the limit is where you'll find me. Flat out!
I thought about this a few times before, and it's not a fair sarcastic swipe. Power steering, ABS, traction control etc - they all enhance normal driving actions. Going flappy-paddle eliminates the shifting action from driving (no, the paddle flap doesn't count if you're actually doing it.) This swipe would be fair to make at someone crying about the synchro rev-match feature in the 370Z haha.

This is just gas for the fire but:

Aside from manuals just being more fun for some, I think they're a legitimate distracted-driver prevention system for most (you gotta figure there are some people that just can't handle it.) It adds a little more work to the commute to keep me focused on driving - work that forces you to pay attention to the road. This really hit me after driving an AT loaner for a few weeks. In short, it was easier to become distracted while driving AT. The car was really boring and I didn't look forward to driving it even though it was "better" in every way compared to my DD.

Manuals are definitely on the way out, but I think it will be a very long time before they disappear all together (if ever) because there's just more to it than convenience and shift times. That said, mechanical steering and no ABS can be really hair raising stuff when you get going fast but I'd still probably kill myself faster on the track with a dual-clutch
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
You're missing the point.

Are any of these tranmissions fast? - Yes
Are they faster than 3 pedal manuals? - Yes
Are they more consistant? - Yes
Do they impress the friends of the more-money-than-brains people who don't track these things? - Yes



Are they more fun? **** no.

Exactly.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:47 PM   #57
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So, who here has actually driven a GTR? I'm guessing 99% of those posting in here haven't.

I own a 2012 GTR and 2007 STi. I prefer the DCT to the 6 speed, HANDS DOWN (and I've owned manual transmission equipped sports cars since I started driving 22 years ago). Those of you (specifically scrappy) who think a DCT equipped car is "less enjoyable, less fun, less engaging" are DELUSIONAL. Come on out to Tulsa and I'll show you what I mean...
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:56 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by phlegmon View Post
So, who here has actually driven a GTR? I'm guessing 99% of those posting in here haven't.

I own a 2012 GTR and 2007 STi. I prefer the DCT to the 6 speed, HANDS DOWN (and I've owned manual transmission equipped sports cars since I started driving 22 years ago). Those of you (specifically scrappy) who think a DCT equipped car is "less enjoyable, less fun, less engaging" are DELUSIONAL. Come on out to Tulsa and I'll show you what I mean...
I have driven a 2010 and a 2011 at speed, as well as a GTR racecar. They are very capable cars and can do incredible speeds out of the box. I surely would not turn one down if given to me, but there is a reason I race vintage cars, and the similar. They have much a more visceral feel to them, they make brilliant noises, and the manuals just add to the experience. If I was getting paid to win, then yes I would be in a GTR, or similar car with a sequential box, but if I am just doing it for fun, then itís a manual and old school for me. I am not the only one like that either, which is why Randy Pobst, Mike Skeen, Tony Stewart, and many others are out here with me driving the same type of cars as well. I could probably, and they can surely afford and do buy cars like the GT-R, but drive these just for the heck of it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:14 PM   #59
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I have driven a 2010 and a 2011 at speed, as well as a GTR racecar. They are very capable cars and can do incredible speeds out of the box. I surely would not turn one down if given to me, but there is a reason I race vintage cars, and the similar. They have much a more visceral feel to them, they make brilliant noises, and the manuals just add to the experience. If I was getting paid to win, then yes I would be in a GTR, or similar car with a sequential box, but if I am just doing it for fun, then itís a manual and old school for me. I am not the only one like that either, which is why Randy Pobst, Mike Skeen, Tony Stewart, and many others are out here with me driving the same type of cars as well. I could probably, and they can surely afford and do buy cars like the GT-R, but drive these just for the heck of it.
Nicely put. Did you notice any big differences in handling between the 2010 and 2011 GTR? I recall that Nissan began to try to tune some character into the cars handling without slowing it down.

I unfortunately have not driven a GTR. I have driven both DCT and MT E92 M3 in around town/spirited country road driving and I'd pay a premium to have the MT. I'd be faster on the track with DCT of course but what the heck. Shaving a second off my lap time is polishing a turd. I'm doing it for fun.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:34 PM   #60
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It blows my mind that after five years, the discussion always ends up revolving around the fact that there is not a manual transmission, year in and year out. Seriously, were people realistically expecting one to magically appear for the 2014 model?

Anyway, I watched some of the videos about it, and Mizuno pointed out that the GT-R used in their 'Ring test was the same as the standard production cars without any special packages. I think it was a slight jab at cars like the Z06 and ZR1, as I think that the cars used by GM on the 'Ring were the ones with those race tires and other stuff that are optional and likely not on many of them actually sold.

But what none (or at least very few) of the reports are indicating is that the actual lap time was 7:19.1 because the test driver had to let off of the accelerator to pass an unexpected car also on the 'Ring at the same time, and Mizuno's estimate was that it added around 0.5 seconds, so they claim 7:18.6.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:34 PM   #61
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Nicely put. Did you notice any big differences in handling between the 2010 and 2011 GTR? I recall that Nissan began to try to tune some character into the cars handling without slowing it down.

I unfortunately have not driven a GTR. I have driven both DCT and MT E92 M3 in around town/spirited country road driving and I'd pay a premium to have the MT. I'd be faster on the track with DCT of course but what the heck. Shaving a second off my lap time is polishing a turd. I'm doing it for fun.
I can not really say since I did not drive them back to back. Both Pushed really bad at entry, then "fixed" themselves to get the correct line and exited the turns like a scolded cat. What I missed about them is there was no real steering correction needed, no balancing on the edge of traction or playing with the slip angles. The tires hated it though and complained the whole time.

Now the Stripped race car was brilliant, but even to this day they can't seem to keep it running. It is the same with Skeen's GTR. Fast when running, but the older C6R is a heck of a lot more reliable.

Edit - Forgot to mention the brakes...They are made by god himself.

Last edited by mhoward1; 11-05-2012 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:49 PM   #62
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There were no significant changes between 09 and '11 (besides revised launch logic). The biggest changes in the R35 were for the US 2012-13 model years. Nissan added power (via higher boost/timing revisions and bigger turbo inlets), bigger brakes, revised the suspension geometry, stiffened the chassis, and altered the trans. ECU for both better daily driving manners and faster shifts/launches. They also officially sanctioned "launch control".

The 2012 and 2013 DBA GTRs feel like a completely different car compared to the 09-'11 CBAs.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:51 PM   #63
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They got along well together in my driveway!

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Old 11-05-2012, 09:32 PM   #64
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Yes, I've driven a 2011 GTR, every car I have ever owned has been a manual and I still think the GTR has the proper drivetrain for the car. Obviously classic sportscar feel wasn't their target when they designed a 3,800lb, 500hp AWD monster. I seriously can't fathom why some people can't understand that basic concept.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:01 PM   #65
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Yes, I've driven a 2011 GTR, every car I have ever owned has been a manual and I still think the GTR has the proper drivetrain for the car. Obviously classic sportscar feel wasn't their target when they designed a 3,800lb, 500hp AWD monster. I seriously can't fathom why some people can't understand that basic concept.
Because they're dumbasses who are stubborn. They don't realize their slow ass reactions make the shift logic in the GTR look like it's thinking at three times the speed of light.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:29 PM   #66
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Because they're dumbasses who are stubborn. They don't realize their slow ass reactions make the shift logic in the GTR look like it's thinking at three times the speed of light.
I just want to row my own gears for christ's sake.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:35 AM   #67
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It's like anything else, progress occurs and people who stubbornly cling to their manual gearboxes will be too old to drive or dead. Then the DCT generation will bitch and moan about the next technological innovation taking away from the rawness of driving, because progress sucks and they never experienced progress in their lives.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:22 AM   #68
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Scrappy is SO right in just about all that he has said here.

I want interaction and tactility and fun. I couldn't care less about lap times.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:24 AM   #69
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Scrappy is SO right in just about all that he has said here.

I want interaction and tactility and fun. I couldn't care less about lap times.
That explains why you have an STi and not a GTR.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:55 AM   #70
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So, who here has actually driven a GTR? I'm guessing 99% of those posting in here haven't.

I own a 2012 GTR and 2007 STi. I prefer the DCT to the 6 speed, HANDS DOWN (and I've owned manual transmission equipped sports cars since I started driving 22 years ago). Those of you (specifically scrappy) who think a DCT equipped car is "less enjoyable, less fun, less engaging" are DELUSIONAL. Come on out to Tulsa and I'll show you what I mean...
Yes I have. And they guy who had the GTR sold it about a year later for an 05 STi becase it was "Too much like a video game"...


I'm not saying the car is supesonic fast, I'm jsut saying it doesn't have the engaging driving experience to go with that excitement of speed. I like having full control of my transmission, I like having to regulate gears, and I like the sensation a 3-pedal manuakl offers. The change in forces betwwen shifts helps sell the sensation of speed. I would much rather drive an old E30M3 than a new GTr on a track. It won't be a fast (hell no it won't), but it's beyond just numbers. The M3 would just be more fun.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:03 AM   #71
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Because they're dumbasses who are stubborn. They don't realize their slow ass reactions make the shift logic in the GTR look like it's thinking at three times the speed of light.
Look at the newb trying to be clever...

How quaint.

I am going to explain this just one more time for you and all your DSG playstation wanna be driver friends. I will try to use small words.

Lap
Times
Mean
Nothing for a daily driven car.

I understand the entire point of the GTR. Produce a car that can put up the best numbers mechanically possible at this price range so they look good in a magazine for bragging rights.

OH ... sorry, some big words there. Let me start over.

From my point of view, while the GTR would be slower around a track with a slick 6 speed manual, it would be more fun and more interactive to drive.

Interactive, ooops. THat means you get to be more involved with the actions that make the car accelerate and change direction. You as a driver get to make decisions and mechanically force things to happen

Dang... accelerate means increase velocity

The GTR will not ever get a manual, as that would hurt its magazine numbers and THAT is not allowed to happen.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:07 AM   #72
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It blows my mind that after five years, the discussion always ends up revolving around the fact that there is not a manual transmission, year in and year out. Seriously, were people realistically expecting one to magically appear for the 2014 model?

Anyway, I watched some of the videos about it, and Mizuno pointed out that the GT-R used in their 'Ring test was the same as the standard production cars without any special packages. I think it was a slight jab at cars like the Z06 and ZR1, as I think that the cars used by GM on the 'Ring were the ones with those race tires and other stuff that are optional and likely not on many of them actually sold.

But what none (or at least very few) of the reports are indicating is that the actual lap time was 7:19.1 because the test driver had to let off of the accelerator to pass an unexpected car also on the 'Ring at the same time, and Mizuno's estimate was that it added around 0.5 seconds, so they claim 7:18.6.
Other way around. The controversary was that the GTR was on ringer tires, and even professional race car drivers couldn't get close with an actual showroom model. Then again I believe the ZR1 record time had a caged corvette inthe name of safety, which was also controversal. This was back in the Nissan-Porsche-Corvette-Viper race to the bottom. Eventually the Viper ACR won out, but that thing is a race car.

Regardless the whole 'Ring argument is a moot point anyways. If you've got the time/money to make such small incremental improvements, of course you'll shave tens of seconds from the lap time. It's so long that you can just compound the **** out of improvemnets. There was an article back in the heyday of this 4-way battle as to why this was all worthless. Eventually you'd tune it out after trying so many set-ups and you'd finally arrive at the best possible tune for the car, even getting down to the best conditions. That's what the GTR did, as confirmed by the driver saying they couldn't have asked for better conditions given the set-up they were running.

There's a reason only official 'Ring times are in sanctioned races...
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:30 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by A W

Because they're dumbasses who are stubborn. They don't realize their slow ass reactions make the shift logic in the GTR look like it's thinking at three times the speed of light.
I see your quote, and raise you this quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO
That means a guy with a DSG equipped car can get to work 0.3 seconds faster than a guy with a Manual equipped car. I mean that is a HUGE difference.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:33 AM   #74
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I just want to row my own gears for christ's sake.
Seriously, the same argument can go right back to them.

They keep missing the point as much as they think we are. It's got nothing to do with us being faster or whatever. It's the simple fact I like rowing gears and I want a transmission where I have a 3rd pedal.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Look at the newb trying to be clever...

How quaint.

I am going to explain this just one more time for you and all your DSG playstation wanna be driver friends. I will try to use small words.

Lap
Times
Mean
Nothing for a daily driven car.

I understand the entire point of the GTR. Produce a car that can put up the best numbers mechanically possible at this price range so they look good in a magazine for bragging rights.

OH ... sorry, some big words there. Let me start over.

From my point of view, while the GTR would be slower around a track with a slick 6 speed manual, it would be more fun and more interactive to drive.

Interactive, ooops. THat means you get to be more involved with the actions that make the car accelerate and change direction. You as a driver get to make decisions and mechanically force things to happen

Dang... accelerate means increase velocity

The GTR will not ever get a manual, as that would hurt its magazine numbers and THAT is not allowed to happen.
Technology moves on without you, no matter how loudly you complain.
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