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Old 11-14-2012, 07:38 AM   #26
WRXLTD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post

I love how everyone blames this initial lean condition at the on-set of boost yet no one has been able to confirm that it truely is the culprit.

It also has nothing to do with emissions. Ford manages to get their Focus ST (turbo) to run a 13:1 or less AFR at 3500rpms.

When I've logged my 2012 WRX with the Torque App, it shows an AFR at ~13.5:1 at the on-set of boost and the richening up into the 12s shorterly thereafter (~4200rpms).
You don't get out much, do you...

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:33 AM   #27
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I thought the Ringland issues were with the STi's, not the WRX? That's been my understanding for the past 3 years.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:38 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by shaX 07 View Post
I thought the Ringland issues were with the STi's, not the WRX? That's been my understanding for the past 3 years.
Can someone shred some light on this?
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:44 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by luan87us View Post
Can someone shred some light on this?
Please do. I do remember the 09 WRX random blown motor issue, but was under the impression that 2010-2013 WRXs had no known major motor/ringland issues...
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXLTD

You don't get out much, do you...
Thank you, this is what I was going to post.

And Maddmax, isn't the Torque App just a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle that relays info to a smart phone? I have heard that you shouldn't trust the OBD2 port fr AFR since the stock O2 sensor doesn't have the same range or resolution of a true UEGO. I would only trust what a wideband is telling me for my AFR.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
I love how everyone blames this initial lean condition at the on-set of boost yet no one has been able to confirm that it truely is the culprit.

It also has nothing to do with emissions. Ford manages to get their Focus ST (turbo) to run a 13:1 or less AFR at 3500rpms.

When I've logged my 2012 WRX with the Torque App, it shows an AFR at ~13.5:1 at the on-set of boost and the richening up into the 12s shorterly thereafter (~4200rpms).

That car can also run on 87oct and be "happy", it just lowers its power output. Subaru needs to step up their game.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:45 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
I love how everyone blames this initial lean condition at the on-set of boost yet no one has been able to confirm that it truely is the culprit.

It also has nothing to do with emissions. Ford manages to get their Focus ST (turbo) to run a 13:1 or less AFR at 3500rpms.

When I've logged my 2012 WRX with the Torque App, it shows an AFR at ~13.5:1 at the on-set of boost and the richening up into the 12s shorterly thereafter (~4200rpms).
It is because of emissions, Clark Turner has confirmed this as he has experience on this topic. Also, look at the graph WRXLTD posted. The AFR is 14:1 until 4,250rpm and doesn't drop to 11:1 until 4,900rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaX 07 View Post
I thought the Ringland issues were with the STi's, not the WRX? That's been my understanding for the past 3 years.
It has affected every WRX engine since the 2004 model year and I believe it's the same model year with the STi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaX 07 View Post
Please do. I do remember the 09 WRX random blown motor issue, but was under the impression that 2010-2013 WRXs had no known major motor/ringland issues...
The 2009 WRX issue was unrelated to this. There was a contamination in one of the materials used in the building process and it affected July-September 2008 build dates for the 2009 WRX. 2009 WRXs built after September 2008 and all subsequent WRX model years don't have this problem, but they still suffer from the lean condition that all WRXs and STIs have since 2004.

The problem won't be resolved until Subaru ditches the EJ-series engine; it's antiquated and eventually won't be able to keep up with modern emissions requirements. Technically, it can't even keep up now unless it runs dangerously lean stock AFRs.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:20 AM   #33
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The issue still lingers, though it's not really widespread on the wrx. From my experience here and with different techs I've talked to, I've see more issues come as a result of aftermarket tunes than the stock 'crappy tune.' There are plenty of reasons for that though (abuse, bad tuner, etc).
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:21 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXLTD View Post
You don't get out much, do you...


I do get out quite a bit. Thanks for asking.

I could have sworn this thread was about WRXs and not STIs, concerns about ringland issues, and questions about this lean issue which so many blame on the ringland failures. If that's the case, here's a dyno plot of a stock 2011 WRX from Cobb. Note the AFR compared your STI dyno.

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Old 11-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax

I do get out quite a bit. Thanks for asking.

I could have sworn this thread was about WRXs and not STIs, concerns about ringland issues, and questions about this lean issue which so many blame on the ringland failures. If that's the case, here's a dyno plot of a stock 2011 WRX from Cobb. Note the AFR compared your STI dyno.
I for one would like to see a dyno graph from and independent company or person. No offense to Cobb but they are selling a product and marketing it as safer than stock. I hope someone jumps in and posts said dyno graph...
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
I do get out quite a bit. Thanks for asking.

I could have sworn this thread was about WRXs and not STIs, concerns about ringland issues, and questions about this lean issue which so many blame on the ringland failures. If that's the case, here's a dyno plot of a stock 2011 WRX from Cobb. Note the AFR compared your STI dyno.


I assume you mean stage 1 Cobb map ??

No way a stock wrx makes that much power do the ground. 265 hp do not go down to 251 at the wheels. If so, i'm more than surprised.

if it's a stage 1 mapping, then the AFR has been "ajusted" to make it safe.

That's the main reason why i put a cobb stg 1 on mine...reliability... that and a CBE.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:48 PM   #37
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Depends on the dyno that run was made on. Other dynos will report lower numbers.

You know the drill. "Your results will vary. Subject to terms and conditions. Void where prohibited."
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fr0st View Post
I assume you mean stage 1 Cobb map ??

No way a stock wrx makes that much power do the ground. 265 hp do not go down to 251 at the wheels. If so, i'm more than surprised.

if it's a stage 1 mapping, then the AFR has been "ajusted" to make it safe.

That's the main reason why i put a cobb stg 1 on mine...reliability... that and a CBE.
That is a stock plot straight from Cobb.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0st View Post
I assume you mean stage 1 Cobb map ??

No way a stock wrx makes that much power do the ground. 265 hp do not go down to 251 at the wheels. If so, i'm more than surprised.

if it's a stage 1 mapping, then the AFR has been "ajusted" to make it safe.

That's the main reason why i put a cobb stg 1 on mine...reliability... that and a CBE.
It has been stated many times that the 265hp factory rating is underrated.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:00 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by yenny View Post
good discussion guys

I guess it comes down to...a very small % sees these failures. But these failures can and still do occur with current models. It does suck if you happen to be one the few with a bad one. I'm sure if subaru had some way remedied the issue more, sales would be better. They have a good product i.e. AWD, boxer rumble, great aggressive exterior looks, fast, fun to drive, under $30k (WRX)
That is just funny to me. Sorry....

Quote:
Originally Posted by luan87us View Post
Oh yeah I agree if those kind of things you metioned are the driver's fault and subaru shouldn't take the blame for that. I'm talking about people that drove the car with common sense but got a manufacture design problem should not be denied warranty.
I just have issue with people that have these issues saying they don't drive them hard. Sorry. With my experience at my dealership and reading posts on here for 10 years(5 as a registered user), I just don't have sympathy. I have owned an 04 STi, 08 STI, and currently an 09 WRX with 83K miles and never had even a hiccup in any of those cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
That car can also run on 87oct and be "happy", it just lowers its power output. Subaru needs to step up their game.
The new DIT in the Forester can run regular. Maybe the next WRX/STI will be able to.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:14 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0st View Post

I assume you mean stage 1 Cobb map ??

No way a stock wrx makes that much power do the ground. 265 hp do not go down to 251 at the wheels. If so, i'm more than surprised.

if it's a stage 1 mapping, then the AFR has been "ajusted" to make it safe.

That's the main reason why i put a cobb stg 1 on mine...reliability... that and a CBE.
The plot is from an Sti read te bottom stick sti
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:00 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 2011rex18 View Post
The plot is from an Sti read te bottom stick sti
It says "2011 Impreza WRX" on the dyno graph.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:05 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011rex18 View Post
The plot is from an Sti read te bottom stick sti
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
It says "2011 Impreza WRX" on the dyno graph.
shhhh he doesn't know how to read
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:31 AM   #44
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I have it on good authority from two different sources, one is a major player in Subaru tuning game, the other is my uncle who is a machinist on contract to repair Subaru engines for a dealer in Boston, that the ringlands in the 2011 and up EJ25's now have a ceramic coating on the ringlands to help reduce failure. It's very non scientific though, take it as a grain of salt, the engineers from Subaru haven't confirmed this.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by erik11876 View Post
I have it on good authority from two different sources, one is a major player in Subaru tuning game, the other is my uncle who is a machinist on contract to repair Subaru engines for a dealer in Boston, that the ringlands in the 2011 and up EJ25's now have a ceramic coating on the ringlands to help reduce failure. It's very non scientific though, take it as a grain of salt, the engineers from Subaru haven't confirmed this.
ooh me like
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:57 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
I love how everyone blames this initial lean condition at the on-set of boost yet no one has been able to confirm that it truely is the culprit.

It also has nothing to do with emissions. Ford manages to get their Focus ST (turbo) to run a 13:1 or less AFR at 3500rpms.

When I've logged my 2012 WRX with the Torque App, it shows an AFR at ~13.5:1 at the on-set of boost and the richening up into the 12s shorterly thereafter (~4200rpms).
The Ecoboost 2.0L is a brand new design with DI which means it can run much higher compression. The EJ25 is an old design that wasn't originally made with today's emission restrictions in mind. There is no doubt that emissions plays a role in the factory tune.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by erik11876 View Post
I have it on good authority from two different sources, one is a major player in Subaru tuning game, the other is my uncle who is a machinist on contract to repair Subaru engines for a dealer in Boston, that the ringlands in the 2011 and up EJ25's now have a ceramic coating on the ringlands to help reduce failure. It's very non scientific though, take it as a grain of salt, the engineers from Subaru haven't confirmed this.

can someone conffirm this ?
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:58 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Djent View Post
can someone conffirm this ?
This is the first I've heard of that claim through word-of-mouth and I can't find anything supporting it on the internet.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #49
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just my .02

2010 WRX, stock motor/tune
78,000+ mi and counting
all oil changes performed by the dealer every 3000-3500 mi.
30k and 60k services performed by IAG Performance with K&N air filter.

never a single problem. i do NOT baby my car either. i think if there was a problem with the tune, it probably would have happened to a lot more people. i thnk most of the failures are more probably a result of a defect in the engine, not the tune.

soon i will have a Speaco TMIC + DP + "stage 2" protune with COBB AP, though. so itll be a bit moot after that.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:20 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by gsrcrxsi View Post
just my .02

2010 WRX, stock motor/tune
78,000+ mi and counting
all oil changes performed by the dealer every 3000-3500 mi.
30k and 60k services performed by IAG Performance with K&N air filter.

never a single problem. i do NOT baby my car either. i think if there was a problem with the tune, it probably would have happened to a lot more people. i thnk most of the failures are more probably a result of a defect in the engine, not the tune.

soon i will have a Speaco TMIC + DP + "stage 2" protune with COBB AP, though. so itll be a bit moot after that.
I don't think it's the tune alone. I think failures occur when you have a fragile tune and owners who:

-don't warm up their car properly before driving "spiritedly"
-use less than optimal gas
-don't follow the maintenance schedule

etc. All of these things together could explain the failures. But there's no denying that these tunes are absurdly lean by aftermarket standards.
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