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Old 11-16-2012, 10:18 PM   #1
dnorton
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Default Help Answer ? ID 1000 Injectors.

Hey Guys, I need someone who knows what they are talking about to answer a question about a set of ID 1000 injectors. I have a couple of guys in our car club saying that ID 1000 injectors flow like DW 850, I find that statement a little surprising to say the least. So is there any facts that say this to be true ?

I find it hard to be true that they don't flow what they are intended to flow. I get it if at a certain pressure they may flow 975cc but 850cc seems to be a bit off.

Thanks Guys,
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:27 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnorton View Post
Hey Guys, I need someone who knows what they are talking about to answer a question about a set of ID 1000 injectors. I have a couple of guys in our car club saying that ID 1000 injectors flow like DW 850, I find that statement a little surprising to say the least. So is there any facts that say this to be true ?

I find it hard to be true that they don't flow what they are intended to flow. I get it if at a certain pressure they may flow 975cc but 850cc seems to be a bit off.

Thanks Guys,
Dennis,

Depends what voltage and fuel pressure the injectors are being run at.


here is a chart with the voltage/pressure/flow data





-Phil
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:05 AM   #3
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Thanks Phil, the reason for the question is because I was talking about selling my ID 1000 to a guy who owns a 2011 STI and the first thing he said when I told him they were ID's was he was told by a couple of guys in our car club that ID's flow less than DW's, said 1000 are like having 850 DW's, I couldn't buy it and had to ask the question.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:00 PM   #4
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FIC sells the same EV14 Bosch injector as a 900cc injector because when tested with gas in the real world they do only flow slightly more than the DW 850s. Many on the boards have posted up about switching from DW850s to ID1000 and not gaining any IDC headroom whatsoever. I guess you can choose to believe the data sheet or you can believe the people on the forums who have actually experienced this issue. Some say its because of the calibration fluid they use to flow test the injectors with. Some use N-heptane and others use gasoline.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #5
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Wasn't aware of that Kelly, I'm going to take a set of IDs over to my buddys place and have them flow tested, I know he uses gasoline, I'm curious now.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:26 PM   #6
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Pretty sure this info can be found on the ID website
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:44 PM   #7
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Subscribe'd for Phil's results !
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:49 PM   #8
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They perform like a 800-900cc injector, IDs flow numbers are very generous. I have always felt their latency was also too low as well, I get much better performance using 10-15% higher values. starting is better and idle/low pulsewidth driving is much smoother.

I would say less than 850 If I were to guess
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:15 PM   #9
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ID flow test with gasoline, the industry standard and all others rate their injectors with N-heptane calibation fluid. Gasoline flow numbers are about 10-15% higher than N-heptane #'s
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:10 PM   #10
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Hmm, not understanding why the industry standard is heptane, when gasoline is what's being used primarily.


Can you shed some light?
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #11
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No clue on that one other than the fact its cheaper than gasoline and readily available.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:44 PM   #12
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Heptane is slightly less flammable than iso-octane but I doubt that plays a big role. It might just be one of those old standards that is still around because that is how it has always been done. It is also a tough decision to make if you are going to get into calibrating injectors as pump fuels have such a wide range of organics present. Most gas in the US has ethanol in it so do you test with that even though it slightly denser than iso-octane? When ID says they test with gasoline do they mean pump gas with ethanol, pure iso-octane or racegas? Pump gas is not even pure iso-octane it is a broad distribution of organic compounds depending on the reforming process and source of the precursor hydrocarbon.

Heptane is also a much longer molecule so its rheology will be different than iso-octane, and both will differ slightly than commercial pump gasoline. The substance known as gasoline can vary so much in composition it is almost worthless as a standard since each batch will vary slightly.

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 11-17-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat 4 Motorsport View Post
Hmm, not understanding why the industry standard is heptane, when gasoline is what's being used primarily.


Can you shed some light?
Probably as luke said, it's a well defined chemical compound, but does it really matter? What matters is that if you're comparing, you compare the same injectors on the same fluid.

Here is a Bosch EV .pdf:
http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang...linjectors.pdf

Quote:
Bosch fuel injectors have their flow rates defined in N-Heptane as part of their engineering specification. N-Heptane is a pure
chemical and does not have the same viscosity and density as standard petrol. Hence the N-Heptane flow rate figures stated
should be used as a general guide for comparison purposes only.
The use of the term "'pure chemical" implies that Luke is correct, consistency of the fluid is the primary factor, but they don't come out and say it.
The N-heptane flow numbers are closer to the ECU scalar than the gasoline flow numbers.

I suspect there isn't a HUGE range of flows across brands offering the EV14, but I bet the different injectior tip designs do result in some small and repeatable differences between brands.

In general the EV14 "1000-ish" cc injectors will flow less than the 1000-ish cc Denso designs, but there's a reason Deatchwerks started carrying an EV14 in the same flow range as their 1000cc Denso design... They had feedback from tuners that the EV14 is a substantially more consistent and better behaved injector at those flows.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:57 PM   #14
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I guess this answers why when my tuner tried to tune for e85 with a 20g Xt we ran out of injectors first pull, even on pump I'm almost out of injector. My problem is I soent my hard earn money for 1000cc injectors not 850's. Live and learn,

Thanks to all of you who help explain that there is an issue with ID 1000 injectors not being that. I'm re-doing my fuel distrubution system with in the next couple of weeks with the help of Phil. Now with an aftermarket FPR I could turn up the pressure and get more flow but I think my best bet is to replace them with bigger injectors.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:50 PM   #15
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With ID1000s and an Aeromotive 340 I ran out of E85 on a big FP Green at ~ 20 psi, swapping in 1400s I ran out of fuel again at the pump at ~24psi.

If I were to do it again I would use the new Walboro E85 pump and Five-O motorsports 1200 or 1400 CC injectors
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:14 PM   #16
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There is no "issue" with ID injectors. The front page of their website says that they test with actual fuels, and they have said as much, and why, on here several times. Personally, I thought it was common knowledge by now, especially with tuners...
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:26 PM   #17
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I went to get my injectors flowed once and I brought 10 gallons of e85 with me. Thought they would be able to test the actual flow rates for me.

I got laughed at and I never went back. Sometimes people are just set in their ways I guess
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:45 PM   #18
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Dennis,

There is no problem with the ID1000's you have, you just need larger injectors.

Your injectors just can't keep up with the fuel demand at the voltage and pressure you're running them at.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
There is no "issue" with ID injectors. The front page of their website says that they test with actual fuels, and they have said as much, and why, on here several times. Personally, I thought it was common knowledge by now, especially with tuners...
This is not new information, and if you wanted your car to run well you did not use ID advertised flow numbers. The odd thing is by choosing to test with "real" fuels they have inflated their injector size by 10-15% compared to everything else on the market, in addition it would seem the ECU is setup for heptane flow values.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:22 PM   #20
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Hey Phil, once again I need your help making a decision. Since I now need to purchase a new set of injectors and fuel pump which ones should I get ? Running e85 with the 20g XT ported I ran out of injectors quick and like I said, even on pump I'm close to maxing them out.
If you need any more info let me know and I'll post the whole setup. Thanks,
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #21
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A true 1000cc or 1200 would be enough with a 300 pump. Hard wire for even more head room
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnorton
Hey Phil, once again I need your help making a decision. Since I now need to purchase a new set of injectors and fuel pump which ones should I get ? Running e85 with the 20g XT ported I ran out of injectors quick and like I said, even on pump I'm close to maxing them out.
If you need any more info let me know and I'll post the whole setup. Thanks,
What wrxsubiemod said, I would do a 1600cc injector and a DW301, the 1600cc will give you some head room.

Phil

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1600.html
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:07 AM   #23
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Looks like the 1600 are discontinue, after reading up on them and looking at their flow chart I started thinking these would be the way to go, then as soon as I looked up their price they said they no longer sales these bad boys, my luck.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:59 AM   #24
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ID2000s are awesome. I won't need another upgrade for this car.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:26 PM   #25
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1600s have been discontinued for a few years I think.

How do the 2000s do on gas, Can't imagine they like to idle with the .6ms base pulsewidth. The 1400s I had were basically bottomed out idling on gas. Most people like to be able to go back and forth between fuels, and this is why I passed on the 2000s myself.
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