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Old 11-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #1
mug23
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Default ABS delete on a dedicated track car

I have a 05 sti and it's my dedicated track car. I'm in the process of rebuilding the car with a new motor, trans, etc... While my engine bay is totally stripped, I was thinking of deleting the ABS to save weight and from the years of tracking the car, it seems that my ABS never was really needed and never kicked-in. Maybe I'm not braking hard enough? My tire specs are, Hooiser R6 275/35/18 and the BBK's are Stoptech 332x32(I may upgrade to 355x32) 4 pot calipers with either Hawk dtc-70 or PF race pads.

Anyways, I like to discuss the benefits and non-benefits of this delete mod. I know about threshold braking and I sometime practice modulate the braking point to near when the ABS does kick in but during actual runs, I never had the ABS kicked in before.

So, should I delete the ABS to save some weight and clean up the engine bay or just keep it?
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:04 PM   #2
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I am pretty sure that if you remove ABS the stock DCCD system will not function properly as it is all integrated. I figure that the DCCD is a pretty important feature on a track car.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #3
RB5 Clone
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if you rip out stock ABS, you will need to work up a new diff controller, lots of options out there for that.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:47 PM   #4
mug23
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I'm thinking of something like DCCD Pro universal controller unit. That's should replace the factory unit and this will work.

The question is without abs, it shouldn't really affect the braking performance much?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:03 PM   #5
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I run a 5mt without DCCD so I don't deal with any of those issues, but I can say I haven't had much problem with the stock RS ABS (mostly because im using stock calipers) I'm going to be running an A6 compound next year vs an R with some extra power and weight so my plan was to wire in a switch to disable/enable ABS.

I like ABS on bumpy tracks a lot, just to keep the damn tires round, but smooth tracks I think an experienced driver could outbrake the ABS system.

Last edited by Rokkit; 11-20-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokkit View Post
I like ABS on bumpy tracks a lot, just to keep the damn tires round, but smooth tracks I think an experienced driver could outbreak the ABS system.
As a racer, I once would have agreed with you. But newer performance cars' ABS work so well that the "an experienced driver could outbreak the ABS system" statement doesn't hold up as well. The STi's ABS unit works very well, and unless you are ALWAYS on a track that is perfectly flat, with no dirt, sand, oil, moisture, car bits, and can always maintain perfect weight transfer, then the ABS would modulate the brakes better than 99.9% of people can.

I was pretty spoiled with the STi ABS unit. Now that I'm in an STI swapped RS with the stock RS ABS unit, it sucks donkey balls. I haven't yet, but I'll be pulling the fuse for track events next season.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMDan View Post
As a racer, I once would have agreed with you. But newer performance cars' ABS work so well that the "an experienced driver could outbreak the ABS system" statement doesn't hold up as well. The STi's ABS unit works very well, and unless you are ALWAYS on a track that is perfectly flat, with no dirt, sand, oil, moisture, car bits, and can always maintain perfect weight transfer, then the ABS would modulate the brakes better than 99.9% of people can.

I was pretty spoiled with the STi ABS unit. Now that I'm in an STI swapped RS with the stock RS ABS unit, it sucks donkey balls. I haven't yet, but I'll be pulling the fuse for track events next season.
Ah, I see. I've heard the STI unit is much better... The RS one works "ok" but I agree with you, I think next season I'll be wiring in a on/off switch for it.

Does work ok in the rain though
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:54 PM   #8
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Yeah, I would keep it. I took it out on my 02 wrx because I couldn't get a dealer to do the TSB reflash on it It works OK in my 05 legacy.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:09 AM   #9
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There is a point about bumpy tracks where the surface is not perfect and getting flat spotted if brakes are locked. In this essence, abs will be a big advantage.

I guess the work that take to delete the abs is is not really worth if there is any gain at all.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:01 AM   #10
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If theres nothing wrong with it i say keep your abs. Ive driven a non-abs car and ive flat spotted at least 1 tire. If you race in a competitive class its bound to happen. But that doesnt mean it wont happen during an HPDE or TT/TA session. If youve never done it i can tell you its not fun. If its mild, you can continue driving on it and it will sort of round itself out. But if its enough of a flat spot, that tire is done because every time you brake it will catch itself and get worse. Imagine that happening to a brand new tire.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:12 AM   #11
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abs system can't weigh much surely?
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mug23 View Post
... from the years of tracking the car, it seems that my ABS never was really needed and never kicked-in.
From my experience it seems that modern ABS systems are not only "smarter"/better, but less obtrusive. I can pretty easily tell when ABS activates in the Subaru. However, in my CTS-V, it's almost imperceptible. I figured that out when I lost ABS at a track event due to a bad wheel sensor. I locked up a wheel or two a couple of times in areas that I had never felt the ABS engaging previously, but apparently it had been. I thought that was really interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
If theres nothing wrong with it i say keep your abs. Ive driven a non-abs car and ive flat spotted at least 1 tire. If you race in a competitive class its bound to happen. But that doesnt mean it wont happen during an HPDE or TT/TA session. If youve never done it i can tell you its not fun. If its mild, you can continue driving on it and it will sort of round itself out. But if its enough of a flat spot, that tire is done because every time you brake it will catch itself and get worse. Imagine that happening to a brand new tire.
I'm actually in the process of adding ABS to my Fox Mustang. A number of folks who race or open track their Foxes have done so for exactly the reason you mentioned - tire preservation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
abs system can't weigh much surely?
It's not a huge amount of weight, but the ABS pump itself is a pretty good chunk, and it's located up in the nose of the car, so it's a good place to lose weight.

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Old 11-21-2012, 10:46 AM   #13
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Everyone here have a very good point. I really don't mind the abs as I mention earlier that the abs really never come into play a lot so it does not affect me that much. My biggest problem with the abs system is the location where the unit is. Like Mr. Olsen said, it's right at the very front corner of the car and I really would love to distribute some of the weight to say in the middle of the car.

If the abs unit wasn't at the front corner of the car, I wouldn't even consider touching it. I'm sure it requires a lot of time to relocate it but I'm not even sure it worth touching it now like I said, if something that I don't have to put time in, I just wouldn't worry about it.

Any thoughts on perhaps relocation of the abs unit? How difficult would you say to do the relocation job since many here have a good point about flat spotting the tire?
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #14
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I've toyed with it, I mean it's just bending up some new lines and routing them which takes time, but it's not too difficult. The more concerning issue would be separating out the ABS wiring from the front harness and re-routing it.

On a race car it wouldn't be too bad - actually other than the ONE radiator fan i have, the ABS pump is the only damn reason I still have a full front harness.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:24 AM   #15
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So if I were to relocate the abs pump say to the passenger area inside the cabin it would be ok and would operate properly? In another word, it wouldn't matter where the pump goes to? I can perhaps get some new hard lines and bent them myself. As for the wiring, maybe I can just entend the stock wires or take the whole front loop wire out and go through all the wire to see what's needed and not needed.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:28 AM   #16
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Keep it! That ABS system is good (eg not 3 channel 80's garbage). The less than 20lbs you'll save will not make up for the wiring headache, additional electronics's you'll need and the first tire you mess up (for whatever reason).

I LOVE the ABS in my vette and it has saved my butt in the rain, on r6's before. seriously, keep it, while you may never need it, the one time you do, it will pay for itself 10 times over.

As well, if you remove the ABS you may as well remove the vac assist as well, and that open's a whole new can of worms. most "newer" road based race cars remove the factory ABS systems and replace them with non-assisted brake systems for better feedback, modulation and bias adjustment. Some even add a bosch or motec abs back kin... but those are "money is no object" cars.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:13 PM   #17
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If you like having projects to work on your car thats a different story, otherwise i wouldnt bother the time/money relocating it unless you know its worth it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:15 AM   #18
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Very true. I think I'm going to just leave it alone as I have many other things I need to finish on the car. This was an interesting discussion for me.

Thank you all.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:58 AM   #19
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If you ever do decide to remove ABS form your track car take a look what professional rally STi's do to solve the problem. Rally cars never have ABS because it severely increases your braking distances on gravel and snow.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:48 AM   #20
mug23
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If you ever do decide to remove ABS form your track car take a look what professional rally STi's do to solve the problem. Rally cars never have ABS because it severely increases your braking distances on gravel and snow.
The thing is, my car is set up only for road racing which I would never run on snow or gravel.

Now come to thing of it, I may even consider converting to rwd only and take out the front shafts.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:02 AM   #21
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Default moving abs pump

no need to extend wire for the abs as it has its own wire coming from the fire wall which is about 6 foot long so all you would have to do is all 6 brake lines
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mug23 View Post
The thing is, my car is set up only for road racing which I would never run on snow or gravel.

Now come to thing of it, I may even consider converting to rwd only and take out the front shafts.
That's ridiculous. If you wanted to have a road race car that's RWD don't convert a Subaru that has 450-500 lbs of motor OUTSIDE the wheel base. Leave it AWD and get the traction advantage on the RWD cars so you make up for the fact that the boat wont turn lol
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mug23 View Post
The thing is, my car is set up only for road racing which I would never run on snow or gravel.

Now come to thing of it, I may even consider converting to rwd only and take out the front shafts.
totally pointless. the engine is way forward (along with the gearbox) precisely so you can have AWD. if you want RWD, buy a RWD car.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:41 AM   #24
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Best of both worlds is to wire an ABS cutoff switch, easily done through the fuse for the pump. Flip it off, the ABS light comes on, flip it back on and the light goes off. Couldn't be easier.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:38 PM   #25
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Man, I would never rid the ABS...^^^like others said...
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