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Old 10-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #101
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4,354lbs, my god...
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:52 PM   #102
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The new M5 is practically an M7. While I think that Autoblog report is kind of idiotic, I do agree with the core argument. A thing this huge and detached from the driver does not need a manual transmission. It's for effortless performance, not engaging performance.

Let's hope that at least the new M3 would still turn out to be a car that is well matched by a nice 6MT.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:53 PM   #103
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4,354lbs, my god...
Wow. Yeah, I can see how the 7 speed would help cover up the fact that she's been eating a few too many cup cakes. It's a shame she got so fat.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:54 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
A thing this huge and detached from the driver does not need a manual transmission. It's for effortless performance, not engaging performance.
I agree -- not that cars should be numb, but in a 4,000+ pound sedan with a twin-turbo V-8, massaging seats and fake exhaust noises, "purity" and "engagement" are likely not big priorities for potential owners.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:52 PM   #105
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Motor Trend just posted their review of the M5 with a manual transmission... interesting stuff in bold:

Quote:
North America is the only continent where you can buy the 2013 BMW M5 with a manual transmission. In that truth hides a stubborn reluctance, a hesitance from a vocal minority to adapt to the onward march of progress. The M5 wasn't designed with a manual in mind, but now, after much complaining, this $100,000, twin-turbo super-sedan is offered with a third pedal and a lever at no extra cost. We got our cake; now we're going to eat it, too.

How is it? Slower. Lacking a noticeable weight advantage; the might-as-well-be-instantaneous shifts from BMW's twin-clutch (M DCT) transmission; and the effective, albeit unwieldy launch control; the manual M5 takes 4.2 seconds to reach 60 mph and 12.5 seconds to pass the quarter mile. The fastest twin-clutch-equipped M5 we tested clocked in at 3.7 seconds to 60 and 11.9 seconds for the quarter mile.

These results aren't surprising, because when you choose a manual these days, you aren't doing so to be faster -- modern twin-clutch transmissions can't be beat in shift speed. No, you choose a manual gearbox because you're about the intimacy and sensation of control that a third pedal and a lever introduces. You're a purist.

But when you apply this logic to all cars, a problem arises. A sweeping, correct transmission choice doesn't exist. Rather, the choice is contextual: A Mazda Miata or a Subaru BRZ wouldn't be more fun with a twin-clutch, and a manual wouldn't make a Ferrari 458 or a Nissan GT-R better.


Where in this spectrum does the M5 sit? In the grey area. The gearbox itself is enjoyable, with moderate throws and the unique rubbery feeling that all BMW manuals exhibit. Once you get used to it, you fall into the rhythm of the car. BMW has also included a rev-matching system similar to the optional feature in the Nissan 370Z. It only operates when the throttle setting is in Comfort or Sport; you're on your own in Sport Plus mode. Mechanically the final drive ratio stays the same. Gears 1 through 4 are slightly taller, but that's something the amount of torque on tap makes irrelevant. More interesting is that the manual returns better fuel economy, if marginally so, up 1 city mpg and 2 highway mpg.

The character of the car exhibits a curious change. For example, the nature of how you interact with a manual brings out the unique sounds from the engine. The turbos cough and sneeze. Clutching in near redline in preparation for a big braking zone results in burps from the exhaust, as if the engine were bouncing off its limiter. These sound effects occur with the twin-clutch, too, but seem more pronounced with the manual.

Overall, the manual introduces a degree of sloppiness that gives the M5 a musclecar-like quality. It's not as smooth or precise. It seems better suited for long, smooth, and fast curvy roads that don't require much effort on the steering wheel or quick gear changes. It wants you to take it easy - "Be cool, man," it says. Yet the twin-clutch can be relaxed, too, and it works on the same smooth roads, but also affords a certain precision and control over the car when you're pushing harder on the tight back roads that the manual lacks. That sense of control is important, considering the size and weight of the M5 and how rapidly its engine charges through its powerband. Controlling 560 horsepower with a manual is fun, but in a dumb kind of way.

The M5 seems a peculiar place to take a stand for the manual transmission. When you consider its nature, with its electronically controlled dampers, electronically adjustable steering, electronically controlled rear differential, and the exhaust note amplified through the stereo, you find that the M5 is dominated by technology. (Like most recent sports and supercars from Europe.) Bearing this in mind, wouldn't a twin-clutch gearbox better match the philosophy that built the car?

Let's go a step further. If you're a purist who pines for manual control of your car, why are you considering an M5?
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...m5_first_test/
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
Motor Trend just posted their review of the M5 with a manual transmission... interesting stuff in bold:
With regards to the last line:

Quote:
Let's go a step further. If you're a purist who pines for manual control of your car, why are you considering an M5?
Probably because the M5, prior to the E60, didn't rely as heavily on electronics. But things change, and the M5 is a perfect example of a car that has changed its image. It is amazing what the DCTs can do in terms of performance, but I'm still going to stick with a manual because I prefer it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:04 AM   #107
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why are you considering an M5?
.... Real Men drive a GTR






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Old 11-21-2012, 09:44 AM   #108
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Probably because the M5, prior to the E60, didn't rely as heavily on electronics. But things change, and the M5 is a perfect example of a car that has changed its image. It is amazing what the DCTs can do in terms of performance, but I'm still going to stick with a manual because I prefer it.
I'd argue that All BMWs have changed their image starting in the 90s. The 3 series is the new 5 series.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:52 AM   #109
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Bingo. Clownshoe or bust!
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:01 PM   #110
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Honestly, just makes me more pissed off they won't sell the 1M anymore.

As if the E90/2 M3 wasn't big/isolated enough, the new M3 is going to be that much worse... a 7/8ths M5.

BMW will no longer make a driver's car with any kind of edge what-so-ever.



Used 1M prices will be too high, forever. Driving a BMW in the future, for me anyway, is going to mean driving a 10 or 15 year old M3/M Coupe, or an ugly 135i with couple grand in it.

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Old 11-21-2012, 12:09 PM   #111
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Or just go find an E30 M3 and you can be happy forever. Vintage classic sportscars never go out of style. And they never fail to produce smiles...
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:33 PM   #112
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Honestly, just makes me more pissed off they won't sell the 1M anymore.

As if the E90/2 M3 wasn't big/isolated enough, the new M3 is going to be that much worse... a 7/8ths M5.

BMW will no longer make a driver's car with any kind of edge what-so-ever.



Used 1M prices will be too high, forever. Driving a BMW in the future, for me anyway, is going to mean driving a 10 or 15 year old M3/M Coupe, or an ugly 135i with couple grand in it.

Luckily life doesn't limit you to BMWs. Not to say that it isn't sad to have seen the fun factor of what was once known as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" be diluted year after year.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:15 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
Luckily life doesn't limit you to BMWs. Not to say that it isn't sad to have seen the fun factor of what was once known as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" be diluted year after year.
Of course not...

But I'm not exactly sold on anything else out there in that class of car.

Audi S4 is probably the closest...but you hear nothign but horror stories.

A used 911 or Cayman S? For a weekender, sure, but that's even more toward the unreliable/$$$ texas to maintain side of things.

Not much else on the grown-up sporting front. Despite BMWs recent scew toward comfort and technology, they're still the best driving sport-sedan out there.

As much as I like STIs, EVOs, etc. (and think i'll own a BRZ at some point), the prospect of driving something like that through my 30s and 40s isn't particularly appealling, as capable and fun as they are.

What is the non-BMW single-car do-it-all option? Fun to drive, legitimate performance, and at least entry-level luxury?
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:30 PM   #114
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Of course not...

But I'm not exactly sold on anything else out there in that class of car.

Audi S4 is probably the closest...but you hear nothign but horror stories.

A used 911 or Cayman S? For a weekender, sure, but that's even more toward the unreliable/$$$ texas to maintain side of things.

Not much else on the grown-up sporting front. Despite BMWs recent scew toward comfort and technology, they're still the best driving sport-sedan out there.
I feel you there. With BMWs become less and less of the "ultimate driving machine" as I mentioned combined with the fact that they get crazy expensive when you spec them to your liking (or at least to include what you'd expect a 2012+ BMW to have as standard equipment), it's just not what it used to be. But like you said, it's not as if the competition is suddenly taking their spot. Though personally I'm not sold on BMW at the moment.

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As much as I like STIs, EVOs, etc. (and think i'll own a BRZ at some point), the prospect of driving something like that through my 30s and 40s isn't particularly appealling, as capable and fun as they are.
I agree somewhat. I'll be 30 next year, and while I'd like to keep my Evo IX SE forever, I know that it's not the car I want to DD until it dies, and I do plan on eventually moving onto a different car as my primary mode of transportation, though I'll keep it as a fun car. My girlfriend and I were thinking of the 2014 Audi A3 Sportback Quattro, assuming Audi decides to bring it to the U.S. It's just a very reasonable DD that won't cost a fortune with options, but clearly not a performance machine.

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What is the non-BMW single-car do-it-all option? Fun to drive, legitimate performance, and at least entry-level luxury?
Searching...
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:30 PM   #115
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I predict only those who can't afford the new M5/M6 are going to be the only ones who will rage about this.
+1
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:38 PM   #116
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My girlfriend and I were thinking of the 2014 Audi A3 Sportback Quattro, assuming Audi decides to bring it to the U.S.
Love them. When the AWD 2.0Ts start to come down in price (used), I would daily drive one.

I really, really want a 335 wagon, or a 135 hatch (I can deal with ugly).

Is a TTS a hair-dresser's car these days?




Fiance is an aspiring orthopedic surgeon...so all this is just internet chatter. I'm going to cook her dinner for the next 5 years or so, then have her buy me whatever that shooting brake Ferrari is called (FF?)....
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:01 PM   #117
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Of course not...

What is the non-BMW single-car do-it-all option? Fun to drive, legitimate performance, and at least entry-level luxury?
New S8, AMG, Rapide, Q'porte (new one soon), Panamera TT for 4-door fun. Would I buy any of these over the new M5? Probably not - Maybe go to a 2-door GT for the DD instead, then the options widen considerably with many cars I'd rather have than an M5/6.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:04 PM   #118
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New S8, AMG, Rapide, Q'porte (new one soon), Panamera TT for 4-door fun. Would I buy any of these over the new M5? Probably not - Maybe go to a 2-door GT for the DD instead, then the options widen considerably with many cars I'd rather have than an M5/6.
Of sorry, I was talking in the smaller new/used $20-40k range.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:16 PM   #119
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BMW will no longer make a driver's car with any kind of edge what-so-ever.
This is what really disappoints me. It's why I loved BMW for so long and it has been slowly slipping away for years now.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:17 PM   #120
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Of sorry, I was talking in the smaller new/used $20-40k range.
In that case, then E60 M5 no question for me - had mine since '06 and still enjoy it as a nice all-rounder - definitely drives like more than it is worth - depreciation was brutal on it, but a great buy now
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:35 PM   #121
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Love them. When the AWD 2.0Ts start to come down in price (used), I would daily drive one.
I just like the new ones a lot more:



I think the overseas models have a number of different engine options, one of which is a 1.8T, but no 2.0T as of this moment (or at least I didn't see anything about it). Seeing how it's not yet officially coming here in that five-door layout, it's not clear what engine it would get for duty in the U.S. -- the 1.8T (which isn't bad, 185 hp and 39 mpg highway for a little hatchback is nice). It's something that we're considering since my girlfriend might give her 2010 Corolla to one of her parents once she pays it off, plus she wants AWD next since we snowboard a lot but would like to considering something with a bit more luxury. At first she said BMW, but we built one online, and it hit around $45k really quickly.

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Fiance is an aspiring orthopedic surgeon...so all this is just internet chatter. I'm going to cook her dinner for the next 5 years or so, then have her buy me whatever that shooting brake Ferrari is called (FF?)....
Yeah, it's the FF. I've seen a few, and they look pretty cool, though I've heard mixed reviews of its AWD system when on surfaces that really utilize it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:26 PM   #122
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If I was going to Autox it, I wouldn't mind a manual. For everything else, I'd much rather that dual clutch auto. It will certainly yield more consistent acceleration times.

I have a 4 speed in my GTO and love it for all around driving.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:00 AM   #123
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If I was going to Autox it, I wouldn't mind a manual. For everything else, I'd much rather that dual clutch auto. It will certainly yield more consistent acceleration times.

I have a 4 speed in my GTO and love it for all around driving.
You ever autox a 4400 lb. car before?
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:36 PM   #124
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Who the hell cares. Its still a BMW and people will buy it because of that. Or they will opt for the 4series which is also dumb.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:01 PM   #125
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You ever autox a 4400 lb. car before?
Yes..
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