What's the deal with hella tones?

[Jack ffr1846]

Note the supertones in my Subalotus?

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[Ernest]

I got Supertones and painted them yellow and I got RA mudflaps because I like how they look. They are both functional, but by no means necessary for DD. The yellow supertones get tons of attention - some ignorant people even thought they were the turbo in the car.

I can afford the $200 bucks for both mods - I wish all my mods were this cheap.

[kpluiten]

I installed hella horns about a year after after I got my 2006 WRX. A woman in a van full of kids ran a stop sign and nearly took off the front of my car. I saw her coming and stopped in time. I was on the horn the whole time. As she rolled by, she never even looked at me. It was clear her Honda Odyssey was quiet enough to silence the weak factory horns.

I installed a set of hellas and have never had a problem with anyone hearing my horns now, including semi trucks. It's saved my ass a handful of times since then. Not bad for $55.

I consider it a safety item, and a cheap one at that.

[heavyD]

Originally Posted by MaddMax

I find these horns about as stupid as these overly large mudflaps so many seem to buy.

Are you talking about the Rally Armor mudflaps? Yeah they don't look beautiful but crappy Subaru paint combined with sanded winter roads means that they are a necessity and the bigger the better.

As for the horns it's more style over funcionality (who really, really needs horns that loud? I use mine only a small handfull of times a year) and one of those style choices that owners either seem to like or not. I think they look stupid but that's just my opinion.

[Dave D.]

Originally Posted by kpluiten

I consider it a safety item, and a cheap one at that.

This. ^

[Jack ffr1846]

Originally Posted by heavyD

As for the horns it's more style over funcionality (who really, really needs horns that loud?

For my Lotus, they are absolutely functional. The bottom of the car is completely covered with flat aluminum panels for airflow management and downforce. The horn (single) is an anemic little bugger and where do they put it? Inside of the front area behind the air difuser that guides air from the mouth to the radiator. It's completely boxed in by the aluminum underneath. From inside the car, if the radio is on, you literally cannot hear the horn. Outside.......barely. With such a small car (hello Suburban piloted by soccer mom on the phone), it's often not seen. It needs to be heard.

[J-hop]

Originally Posted by Jack ffr1846

For my Lotus, they are absolutely functional. The bottom of the car is completely covered with flat aluminum panels for airflow management and downforce. The horn (single) is an anemic little bugger and where do they put it? Inside of the front area behind the air difuser that guides air from the mouth to the radiator. It's completely boxed in by the aluminum underneath. From inside the car, if the radio is on, you literally cannot hear the horn. Outside.......barely. With such a small car (hello Suburban piloted by soccer mom on the phone), it's often not seen. It needs to be heard.

Yea these are absolutely functional IMO and will go on my S30.

Last year I was driving down a parking lot aisle. I saw a grandpa to my left cutting through stalls, I slammed on my brakes and stopped realizing he wasn't even watching for cars in the parking lane and laid on my horn. He didn't even hear it and continued to drive without looking and plowed right into my front quarter panel, it was only a 8-10 mph collision but since he wasn't even remotely aware of his surroundings he didn't know I was there until after he hit me with no brakes applied and caused 2500 in damage. Maybe this would have ended differently had I had a horn loud enough for his deaf ears to pick up.

[sc00by4life]

Originally Posted by J-hop

Actually no. Doubling POWER is 3dB. Doubling amplitude is 6dB. NEITHER relates to a doubling of perceived volume, that is a much more complex calculation as you have to deal with weighting. Two signals of equal amplitude perfectly constructively interfering should equal twice the amplitude.

a doubling of POWER (or energy) is the same as the doubling of SOURCE (for instance....2 horns as opposed to 1, 4 horns as opposed to 2). doubling the source is NOT the same as double the amplitude (gain).

nowhere in my response did I state that perceived volume doubled, merely that perceived volume changes in relation to distance and angle to the source. 10db is a perceived doubling of volume. i do audio for a living.

its a 3db gain. yay for logs .

[sackytar]

Cause our horns sound uncool.

[J-hop]

Yes yay for logs! But again I have to disagree.

To address your first comment, I was simply correcting where you state that power and volume are interchangeable which thy are not ie below:

Originally Posted by sc00by4life

10 * log10 (2) = 3.01 dB, where 2 is the double in power (volume).

I found a good reference talking about the interference of two wave sources which is exactly what we are dealing with (constructive interference of two acoustic wave sources to produce a louder sound.
http://bolvan.ph.utexas.edu/~vadim/C...terference.pdf

Equations 4 and 5 are important, and assuming the waveform produced by both pairs of tones are the same (same amplitude and phase) you can see all delta phi's are zero and for the perfect exactly constuctive interference you get double the amplitude (related directly to spl) and quadruple the power equaling a dB increase of 6dB.

Can't we just be friends??

Edit: and doubling the sources in this case is equal to two sources emitting the same amplitude/phase/power acoustic waves and how they constructively interfere to create a louder sound is what we are interested in

[heavyD]

Originally Posted by Jack ffr1846

For my Lotus, they are absolutely functional. The bottom of the car is completely covered with flat aluminum panels for airflow management and downforce. The horn (single) is an anemic little bugger and where do they put it? Inside of the front area behind the air difuser that guides air from the mouth to the radiator. It's completely boxed in by the aluminum underneath. From inside the car, if the radio is on, you literally cannot hear the horn. Outside.......barely. With such a small car (hello Suburban piloted by soccer mom on the phone), it's often not seen. It needs to be heard.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your horn? They are only for alerting nearby drivers and pedestrians. Not to be heard blocks away as there are regulations that automakers must meet. In your case I can see possibly a case for them with such a small car with a poor horn as you say but the people with Subaru's are kidding themselves if they think this is anything more than an appearance mod.

[stanrc]

When I use my horn its to say "Hey dummy, you did something stupid." not "Hey dummy, you are about to do something stupid." When they are about to do something stupid I'm more worried about avoiding the accident than trying to make sure they hear me. If anything, loud horns are just going to startle them and make them do something drastic like swerve the other way, possibly into another car.

[INKMAN]

Because they are just awesome

[sfk1412]

Originally Posted by INKMAN

Because they are just awesome

Very Awesome

[brett192]

I'm perfectly happy with the stock horns on my 2002, very loud and ear peircing. The only reason I'd get hella supertones would be for looks. I suppose they would be louder, especially if I left my two stock horns on the car. But I'm not about to drop $50 on louder horns.

[ColeBerkenbile]

Loud horns are for safety when your stock horn sounds like a clown car. I will be getting Hellas because my horns do not cut it

[Mr Wrex]

The stock horns sound like a clown car IMO. I'm probably going to get hellas soon as I commute to jersey daily and they're crazy drivers

[kpluiten]

Originally Posted by heavyD

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your horn? They are only for alerting nearby drivers and pedestrians. Not to be heard blocks away as there are regulations that automakers must meet. In your case I can see possibly a case for them with such a small car with a poor horn as you say but the people with Subaru's are kidding themselves if they think this is anything more than an appearance mod.

And that's what we're saying. My stock horns would not be easily heard inside most newer vehicles with their nice quiet rides and refined stereos. Cars today are insulated better than ever to cancel out exterior noise. Couple that with a nice sound system and/or noisy occupants and the whimpy Subaru stockers just don't cut it. These get the point across without being stupid loud like an airhorn.

I've had a bunch of American cars and the Subaru horn was worse than all of them. By far.

Also, who cares if it's an appearance modification for some? What's the problem? They are cheap and somewhat useful. They are 100 times better than about 90% of the other appearance modifications I see while browsing this site. These are downright tasteful compared to most. Have you been in the Interior/Exterior modification subforum...? Yikes.

I also think they are a great first project for those new to the modding community. They require a bit of skill, but you can't really mess much up. There are a lot of great tutorials on the install. They give you practice with basic skills like wiring and relays. And when you are done, they provide great sense of accomplishment. That's a great, cheap first modification if you ask me.

Here's some appearance for you:

[gotboost2jz]

^ That's just a good looking car.

[sc00by4life]

Originally Posted by J-hop

Yes yay for logs! But again I have to disagree.

To address your first comment, I was simply correcting where you state that power and volume are interchangeable which thy are not ie below:



I found a good reference talking about the interference of two wave sources which is exactly what we are dealing with (constructive interference of two acoustic wave sources to produce a louder sound.
http://bolvan.ph.utexas.edu/~vadim/C...terference.pdf

Equations 4 and 5 are important, and assuming the waveform produced by both pairs of tones are the same (same amplitude and phase) you can see all delta phi's are zero and for the perfect exactly constuctive interference you get double the amplitude (related directly to spl) and quadruple the power equaling a dB increase of 6dB.

Can't we just be friends??

Edit: and doubling the sources in this case is equal to two sources emitting the same amplitude/phase/power acoustic waves and how they constructively interfere to create a louder sound is what we are interested in

No, I totally agree . I merely put volume next to power as its easy to explain in lamens terms for those that don't understand what you and I are talking about .

Total energy remains unchanged because higher kinetic energy at the mean position converts into higher potential energy at the extreme points such that their sum remains constant.

Hella rates their horns at 118db summed, so if we use this pair as a base (2), and double that base, we then use the log 10 * log10 (2) = x to calculate the change in volume. If hella rated their horns at 118db individually than you would be correct. Reversing our formula, we could postulate that a single horn would produce 115db - a quadruple of our source would result in a 6db gain, for a total of 4 horns. I think that is where you were getting off.

This is a pretty good link that explains it:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noi...opagation.html

[BigRob74]

i just put them on this weekend. i like the look, the sound is just a bonus. im with the other guy and the mudflaps though, its not that the rally armors are that bad, just hysterical when people put red ones on a car and think it looks good to each his own

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by brett192

I'm perfectly happy with the stock horns on my 2002, very loud and ear peircing. The only reason I'd get hella supertones would be for looks. I suppose they would be louder, especially if I left my two stock horns on the car. But I'm not about to drop $50 on louder horns.

Spend your money where you want but $50 bucks is nothing as far as mods on these subies. Of course if you do not like the look well ya saved yourself a fifty.

[Ftinney84]

Originally Posted by Mr Wrex

The stock horns sound like a clown car IMO. I'm probably going to get hellas soon as I commute to jersey daily and they're crazy drivers

I can sadly agree to what he said lol.

I havnt had my car half a year yet, and there have been a couple times when someone didnt hear my horn and almost backed into me.

Even tho i do agree with what stan said. Im sure these would most times, startle a person more than stop them. But thats where you need to use your own judgement before you blare the horn and scare the beejesus out of somebody. Here in the suburbs of Jersey. Half the time people are on their friggin phones sipping lattes, doing their makeup, whatever the heck else possible except for watching their surroundings. I'm going to make sure they hear me in my lane before they drift into mine because somebody has to finish their very important text.

And in philly where no one stops at stop signs, also much needed.

[J-hop]

Originally Posted by sc00by4life

edited out to reduce post length....

I don’t think we are quite understanding each other. I am treating the hella tones as a “single” 118db source. I am not looking at them individually.

Ok so I think we can agree on the following points:
(1) treating one hellatones pair as a “single” 118dB source
(2) Assuming no manufacturing differences between two pairs they should have the same: amplitude, intensity (which is actually what we mean when we say power in this thread- given the equations you have provided), frequency output and phase of the signal

Now the important part of point 2 is that the frequency output and the phase in this case of the signal between two pairs is the same (ie: just to re-iterate there are no difference between our 2 sources – where 1 source equals one pair of hellatones).

Now two signals with equal frequency and a definite relationship between their phase (in this case there is a definite relationship because they are the same phase!) are coherent sources. if these conditions are not met then they are incoherent sources.

I believe you will agree with the above point because the sources are identical. Again to reiterate 1 source =118dB pair of hellatones

So now on to the main theory, if the two signals are incoherent you would be correct in adding the power/intensity and the 3dB increase would be correct. However because these are identical sources (ie: coherent) you cannot add the intensities, you must add the amplitudes (which means quadrupling the power/intensity as the power/intensity is proportional to the square of the amplitude.

Therefore for two identical (coherent) sources, adding two together gives you a 6dB increase.

references:

(1) It is explained in section 3 "addition of two sounds" of the following reference (specifically read the first 2 paragraphs, the be sure to look at 3.2.1 where they work through the addition of two coherent sources and demonstrate that two identical sound sources added together results in a 6dB increase):
http://physics.bu.edu/py231/db3.pdf

(2) the end of section 6.2 in the following source (they note below the equations if both are in phase coherent sources the increase is 6dB):
http://www.me.psu.edu/lamancusa/me458/6_levels.pdf

and the following is a quick calculator tool for adding two coherent (identical) sources together and you’ll see you get 124:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calcula...entsources.htm


Amid the rims and tims, CAIs and exhaust threads this is actually a pretty interesting discussion

[heavyD]

Originally Posted by kpluiten

Also, who cares if it's an appearance modification for some? What's the problem? They are cheap and somewhat useful. They are 100 times better than about 90% of the other appearance modifications I see while browsing this site. These are downright tasteful compared to most. Have you been in the Interior/Exterior modification subforum...? Yikes.

I don't think I ever said there was a problem. I said it was an appearance modification and that's what it is for most. I don't have disdain for people that use them as an appearance mod as it's their cars and they can do what they want. With all appearance mods some people will like the looks and some won't. Just because I think they look juvenile doesn't mean that I believe my opinion is the be all end all as I am respectful that different people have different tastes. The OP asked the question and I answered in that it's an appearance mod that Subaru owners in particular seem to like.