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Old 12-05-2012, 08:36 PM   #176
djdalaney
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Originally Posted by Smurftastic View Post
There is actually more strain on engine internals if you let it idle for 10 minutes than letting it idle for 45 seconds and then letting it warm up to 180 degrees while driving under 2500k the whole time. The more time the engine is cold, the more wear in internals - letting it idle for ten minutes may warm up the coolant a bit on a cold start, but even when the thermostat starts to open, the oil still isn't at operating temperatures.
I would love to hear your explanation on how this works. You're telling me an engine with no load is going to wear faster than an engine under constant load? You're crazy.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:34 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by djdalaney View Post
I would love to hear your explanation on how this works. You're telling me an engine with no load is going to wear faster than an engine under constant load? You're crazy.
Do you know how an oil pump works and what cold oil is like? I'll leave the explanation to someone with more technical knowledge of it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by lokilabs View Post
I don't warm her up. I started her on the first day we met at the dealership and she's been running ever since.
finally! someone who does just what i do! she hasnt been shut off since 2/7/12
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:06 PM   #179
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Do you know how an oil pump works and what cold oil is like? I'll leave the explanation to someone with more technical knowledge of it.
Yes, I have pretty good understanding of how almost every internal engine component works. Cold oil is thicker, but I still don't see the problem here. Cold oil + load would still wear more than cold oil + no load... This "wear" you guys are talking about is probably negligible. What internals are you worried about wearing out by idling after a cold start? Piston rings? Cylinder walls? Bearings? All of them are going to wear more when there is higher cylinder pressure. Low cylinder pressure = minimal wear. End of story.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:19 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by djdalaney View Post
Yes, I have pretty good understanding of how almost every internal engine component works. Cold oil is thicker, but I still don't see the problem here. Cold oil + load would still wear more than cold oil + no load... This "wear" you guys are talking about is probably negligible. What internals are you worried about wearing out by idling after a cold start? Piston rings? Cylinder walls? Bearings? All of them are going to wear more when there is higher cylinder pressure. Low cylinder pressure = minimal wear. End of story.
I think he is saying cold engines will cause more wear. If you drive the car sooner it will warm the car up much sooner which overall has less wear than idling a cold engine for 10 min. There is no point to idling an engine that long unless you want the cabin to be warm before you get in it
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:42 AM   #181
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During summer and no snow/ice days usually around 1-2 minutes while i get myself situated. During snow/ice days, I start it, go remove and ice/snow then go on my way. Usually 5-10 min.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #182
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Anyone know what the cold cranking amps for a stock 2012 WRX sedan is?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:11 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by TurboTeggyBoy View Post
I don't. Start, back out garage, drive out neighborhood. Not needed.
This. My reasoning:

1) Old cars needed to warmed up because of carbs

2) Despite needing to be warmed up people used to start and go, eventually damaging the engine.

3) Carmakers got tired of warrenty claims and began designing cars to survive this torture

4) Hence, modern cars do not need to be warmed. Check out cars.com "Car Talk" FAQ section or similarly accredited source for more detailed information on this.

Your water temp gauges is bunk anyway, it's just a three position indicator, cold, normal and too late.

Oil temp is the key here. Don't mash until it is good amd warm. Note the BMW e46 M3 and similar vintage M5 both have indicators on the dash that, as oil temp rises, will raise the redline until the oil is warm and the redline is back to its nominal setting.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Your water temp gauges is bunk anyway, it's just a three position indicator, cold, normal and too late.

Oil temp is the key here. Don't mash until it is good amd warm. Note the BMW e46 M3 and similar vintage M5 both have indicators on the dash that, as oil temp rises, will raise the redline until the oil is warm and the redline is back to its nominal setting.
The S2000 keeps the rev-limiter lower until a certain temperature is reached as well. The only problem is, you have no idea when that is. We need oil temperature gauges in performance-oriented cars from the factory.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:36 AM   #185
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Not unless you have tgv delets in cold weather. Makes it idel a lil retarded till it wormes up. And I only worm up my car when it was a very cold night and I start seeing my oil pressure start dropping a little from the 100psi mark. If you know and understand oil pressure you really dont need a oil temp
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:40 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by 10splaya22 View Post
I think he is saying cold engines will cause more wear. If you drive the car sooner it will warm the car up much sooner which overall has less wear than idling a cold engine for 10 min. There is no point to idling an engine that long unless you want the cabin to be warm before you get in it
+1 bazillion. You start the car, let it run for a couple seconds; then start driving like you said low RPM off boost.

Less time with engine up to temp = more time wearing components not up to spec clearances from the temp. About the worst thing you can do for an engine (other than running as hard as possible) is letting an engine sit and idle.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:02 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
The S2000 keeps the rev-limiter lower until a certain temperature is reached as well. The only problem is, you have no idea when that is. We need oil temperature gauges in performance-oriented cars from the factory.
For AP1s it needs three bars on gauge and AP2 needs 7-8 bars. I found out the hard way when i first got mine. Ever since then I had never done it again.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
The S2000 keeps the rev-limiter lower until a certain temperature is reached as well. The only problem is, you have no idea when that is. We need oil temperature gauges in performance-oriented cars from the factory.
They would have to be heavily damped idiot gauges. Time and time again cars for enthusiasts have come out with the gauges we want, and then a couple years in they get removed or made into dummy gauges because Bob who bought a 94 miata new kept coming into the dealer asking why his oil pressure kept changing. And wanting to get it fixed. In 95 the oil pressure gauge just went to a value in the middle if there is any oil pressure at all.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:17 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by 10splaya22 View Post
I think he is saying cold engines will cause more wear. If you drive the car sooner it will warm the car up much sooner which overall has less wear than idling a cold engine for 10 min. There is no point to idling an engine that long unless you want the cabin to be warm before you get in it
This isn't true. There is not going to be any extra wear from idling for 10 minutes when the car is cold vs driving away after 30 seconds. I'm not saying you SHOULD idle for 10 minutes, but any wear caused by this will be NEGLIGIBLE over the life of your car. Excessive idling like stop and go traffic for 1 hour or more every day, could cause excessive bearing wear though. Even that probably won't make a difference in overall engine service life.

Let me repeat this one more time though, I am NOT suggesting that you warm your car up for 10 minutes before you start driving. I'm just trying to make it clear that if you did, it is not going to mean replacing your engine sooner than the guy who idles for 30 seconds before driving.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:18 PM   #190
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I just drive off like a bauce.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:30 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
They would have to be heavily damped idiot gauges. Time and time again cars for enthusiasts have come out with the gauges we want, and then a couple years in they get removed or made into dummy gauges because Bob who bought a 94 miata new kept coming into the dealer asking why his oil pressure kept changing. And wanting to get it fixed. In 95 the oil pressure gauge just went to a value in the middle if there is any oil pressure at all.
While oil pressure might be confusing to the average person, oil temperature shouldn't be. It would actually help the idiots since the notes in the manual could read, "Don't drive hard before the oil temp gauge hits XXX degrees."
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:38 PM   #192
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Click + Clack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car Talk
With the cold New England winter weather about to swoop down on us, I
have a queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why, you ask? Because
every winter when my boyfriend and I get into my car, I start it, then
I put the car in gear after about 30 seconds and drive off. This
drives my boyfriend nuts, and I have to hear about "how bad it is for
my car" to put it into Drive before it warms up. He will start his car
and sit there for a good five to 10 minutes before he shifts into
Drive. My question is this: Am I really doing harm to my car by not
letting the engine run for 10 minutes? If not, how can I prove this to
him? I found an article in The New York Times a couple of years ago
that stated that nothing is gained by sitting in a freezing-cold car
while the motor is running before you shift into Drive. He thinks that
the reporter at the Times didn't know what he was talking about. But
he just might listen to you if you say it's OK. Please help! It's cold
here in Boston! -- Lisa

RAY: How do you prove it to him, Lisa? Hand him this column and ask
him to read the following aloud:

TOM: Dear Lisa's Boyfriend: You have your head so far up your tailpipe
on this one, it may be coming out your air intake.

RAY: How's that, Lisa? Will that do it? You're absolutely right, as is
the reporter from The New York Times. On modern, fuel-injected cars --
basically anything made in the past 20 years -- you're not helping the
car at all by warming it up for five or 10 minutes.

TOM: On older, carbureted cars, that kind of extended warm-up can
actually cause damage to the engine by diluting the oil with excess
fuel. So it's even worse if you have a really old heap.

RAY: But with modern cars, all you're doing with a long warm-up is
wasting gas, increasing pollution, raising the temperature of the
planet and making yourself 10 minutes late for your chiropractic
appointment. The proper procedure is to start the car. If it starts
and keeps running, put it in Drive and go. Go gently (don't back out
of your driveway and floor it right onto a highway entrance ramp),
because you'll be warming it up during your first few minutes of
driving, but DO drive it.

TOM: If it's bitterly cold out, like 10 or 20 degrees Fahrenheit or
lower, you can let it warm up for a minute or two to allow the oil to
thin out a bit and circulate completely. But other than that, if it
runs, driving it gently is the best way to warm it up.

RAY: So tell your boyfriend he not only needs to get off your case
about this, but he needs to stop warming up the car himself.

TOM: AND, to make up for all the misplaced grief he's given you over
the years, he needs to start going to bed 10 minutes before you do, to
warm up the bed for you on cold winter nights. That's a warm-up
activity he can do that's actually useful!
/thread
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #193
Leafy
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Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
While oil pressure might be confusing to the average person, oil temperature shouldn't be. It would actually help the idiots since the notes in the manual could read, "Don't drive hard before the oil temp gauge hits XXX degrees."
Who reads the manual?

We have modern electronics in the car. It would be child's play to just limit throttle position and rpm based on oil temperature. Of course people would complain then that their car was broken too... God damn stupid people.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:24 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by climbhigh09 View Post
Click + Clack

/thread
Nice to see someone take my advice! Hahahaha! Mods, please lock this thread!
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:03 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Who reads the manual?

We have modern electronics in the car. It would be child's play to just limit throttle position and rpm based on oil temperature. Of course people would complain then that their car was broken too... God damn stupid people.
Everyone should. And I think RPM level should be based on oil temperature or at least add a gauge. It's frustrating having to guess when your oil is up to operating temperature. I usually give it 15 minutes in the Winter and no less than 10 minutes in the Summer of easy driving until I start driving spiritedly, but if I had a gauge telling me the temperature, I could adjust my warm up time accordingly.

ibgetanoiltemperaturegauge
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by nhmtns View Post
I let mine warm up for an hour with the heat cranked so when I get in it feels I'm in Hawaii. It's like a mini vacation.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #197
Chris223
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So explain to me how you properly warm up a 2012 Impreza with a CVT... I mean you barely touch the gas pedal and it revs up to 3000+ rpm and drops once you reach your cruising speed. I mean I guess you could keep it under 2500rpm for the first few miles to warm it up but you'd barely get it moving, and in traffic that just isn't a viable option.

If I'm at a red light, I hit the gas to do normal acceleration and I'm at 4k rpm before I know it. It's my first CVT so at the very beginning I was like wtf until I learned that that's just how the CVT in these cars work.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:35 AM   #198
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I wouldnt worry about it. I regularly hit 3500 in 1st when the car is cold because it just gets there so quickly. You have higher bearing loads lugging the engine than you do at 4k. So if you really need to accelerate on a cold engine, physics says you would be better off reving it up a bit than trying to floor it at 2k.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:07 PM   #199
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I have a good friend who is a mechanical engineer...he always tells me that the break in and warm up stuff that's being passed down still is no longer valid.

In short:

From mile 1 just drive it. As long as the engine is warmed to normal operating temp before you romp on it you'll be fine. What you don't want is a very fast increase/change in temperature. That's it. Sitting in idle isn't necessary, just drive it easy as folks have said.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:00 PM   #200
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honestly living in NJ, ive been warming up the car for 2 minutes in the morning thats it no more no less. just to get things going and get my act in gear with work before i start my day.
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