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Old 11-30-2012, 04:42 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by shemoves View Post
What would be considered tight grouping? 1MOA?
all depends on what you are shooting, and AR yeah 1 moa is good... in a bolt gun... the rifles that we make in school shoot sub 1/2 moa at the biggest... if they are shooting bigger than that you did something wrong...


as for the whole yaw and fragmentation thing... again in fast twist bbls bullets won't yaw, the only bbl twist rate in an ar that has ever produced an actual yawing effect on bullet impact was the original 1:15 twist, this was unable to produce accurate grouping in extremely cold(dense) air, what you see in ballistics gel is the bullet torquing off its center line... ITS SPINNING... remember playing with tops as a kid... spin one and then poke it or watch as it slows down same concept, it becomes unstable and spins off in the direction it was spinning as it slows down. the main difference is a bullet is slowing down to nearly a stop almost instantly.

fragmentation is a whole nother kettle of fish. You want a bullet to expand and fragment upon impact and deliver as near to 100% of its energy into a target. thinner jacketed bullets such as a matchking will expand and actually tend to basically explode when they hit soft tissue (hence why most police snipers use federal match gold ammo) a heavier denser constructed bullet will most likely pass through a target and not deliver all of its energy. it will poke a hole in, cause some initial hydro-static shock (water is non compressible) but the bullet will continue on its merry way out of the target. this is not a good thing. the reason a lot of hunters want a heavy and strong bullet is because they want a blood trail that they can track, two bleeding holes is better than one thought process.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:16 PM   #1827
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Most any heavy based pointed bullet will yaw when entering a body due to the nose slowing down fast. They will flip over and many times exit sideways or base forward.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:23 PM   #1828
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So fragmentation is more desirable than yaw?

On a side note, the more I read, the more I wonder why a penetrator round is the standard load. I guess, at the least, it could be seen as a test in weather high attrition in the short term, to have some return, vs long-term slow, steady, permanent reductions are more effective.
With FMJ rounds they fragment when they start to yaw and they breaks apart from the extreme forces.

I'm not sure what your second question is. The recently replaced M855 green tip with the penetrator was adopted in the 80s to increase penetration against Russian soldiers who would be wearing equipment on their torsos.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:44 PM   #1829
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I know what the differences between yaw and fragmentation are, what I was asking is which one, in the real world, is "better." In a way, fragmentation is like yaw to the extreme and in multiple directions. I guess it really comes down to this--it depends. Armor/no armor, behind auto glass/in an open field, etc.

It seems like it would make sense for them to make a penetrator round that had the same POI as the MK262, then do an every-other type of loading in the magazines. What do you think?
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:01 AM   #1830
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I know what the differences between yaw and fragmentation are, what I was asking is which one, in the real world, is "better." In a way, fragmentation is like yaw to the extreme and in multiple directions. I guess it really comes down to this--it depends. Armor/no armor, behind auto glass/in an open field, etc.

It seems like it would make sense for them to make a penetrator round that had the same POI as the MK262, then do an every-other type of loading in the magazines. What do you think?
There is no one best option. A good fragmenting bullet like is used in law enforcement would work great against open targets but would not work very well against barriers or against light vehicles like cars and trucks. A full on armor piercing load would work well against barriers and vehicles but wouldn't be great at dropping bad guys because they would just bore a hole straight through them.

I don't think mixing ammo is a good idea because it adds a lot of complexity to the equation. The best bet would be to get a good compromise round. The new M855A1 fielded by the Army is a good direction. It is a full on armor piercing round but the design helps it break up in soft tissue. The Marine's Mk318 is another good option. The front of it fragments causing good wounding but the base stays intact which gives it increased penetration.

In testing the new A1 round increased penetration over the old green tip and reliably fragmented in ballistics gel. In fact the new A1 out penetrated the 7.62 NATO M80 ball round on several barriers.

As far as civilian use goes we have a lot better ammunition to choose from. If you want a good fragmenting load Hornady Tap 55 grn or Federal Tactical 55 grn both have a well earned reputation for putting bad guys down. If you want a little more penetration then the Speer Gold Dot bonded soft point and the Federal Fusion soft point are great options.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:52 AM   #1831
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You will find that the best bet for a softer target, say for home protection a good quality 55gr hp like the ones c grunt said are impossible to beat at close ranges
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:59 AM   #1832
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Just a correction on that twist rate sti1911 the very first m16's were a 1:14 which would yaw at the slightest interference to the bullet(I E leaves in the jungle) with the 1:12 twist the m193 bullet will yaw after 2-3 inches of penetration, as opposed to the m855 and the 1:7 which yaws after 14-17 inches on an unarmored target. there are some interesting new loads out there but nothing has actually hit the battle fields in mass quantities save maybe the USMC barrier round.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:37 AM   #1833
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Originally Posted by GroceryStore_Ninja View Post
Just a correction on that twist rate sti1911 the very first m16's were a 1:14 which would yaw at the slightest interference to the bullet(I E leaves in the jungle) with the 1:12 twist the m193 bullet will yaw after 2-3 inches of penetration, as opposed to the m855 and the 1:7 which yaws after 14-17 inches on an unarmored target. there are some interesting new loads out there but nothing has actually hit the battle fields in mass quantities save maybe the USMC barrier round.
With M855 it actually depends on the lot and rifle whether or not you get early yaw or late yaw. That's why most Soldiers and Marines have not problems but there are many reports of the round failing to drop bad guys.

Also I have talked with several people who are currently overseas or just returned from Afghanistan and the Army is in fact widely using the new A1. My old unit is there now and I stay in touch with a few of the guys. They are reporting that its more accurate than M855 and they haven't had anyone complain about lack of lethality. My only concern with the round is the increase in chamber pressure that the new A1 produces.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:25 PM   #1834
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With M855 it actually depends on the lot and rifle whether or not you get early yaw or late yaw. That's why most Soldiers and Marines have not problems but there are many reports of the round failing to drop bad guys.
I read that a problem is getting the steel penetrator in the exact same spot every time which is leading to the inconsistency...which makes sense.

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Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
There is no one best option.
This is what I was saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
I don't think mixing ammo is a good idea because it adds a lot of complexity to the equation. The best bet would be to get a good compromise round.
If they both follow the same trajectory and feed reliably, seems like it would work. You'd know better than me though.

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Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
As far as civilian use goes we have a lot better ammunition to choose from. If you want a good fragmenting load Hornady Tap 55 grn or Federal Tactical 55 grn both have a well earned reputation for putting bad guys down. If you want a little more penetration then the Speer Gold Dot bonded soft point and the Federal Fusion soft point are great options.
I've tried the Gold Dot. I did three 3-shot groups, and a 4-shot group, and had surprisingly large groups with it (well, larger than than the other stuff I tested). The Federal Tactical...isn't that FMJ?

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Originally Posted by sti1911 View Post
You will find that the best bet for a softer target, say for home protection a good quality 55gr hp like the ones c grunt said are impossible to beat at close ranges
Why a 55 grain over a heavier round?
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:46 PM   #1835
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One problem with having two different rounds is that most rifles won't zero the same with different ammo. Another problem would be that you wouldn't know what round you had loaded next. What if you were only able to get one shot off at a Taliban fighter crouching behind a truck bed and the round you fired didn't penetrate because it broke apart? That would suck.

Federal Tactical is a hollow point. It's what we use at work.

The reason why the rounds recommended are 55 grain is because that's also the weight of most training ammo. That way your training ammo and defense ammo will both shoot close enough to each other that it doesn't make a difference at training ranges.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:53 PM   #1836
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #1837
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One problem with having two different rounds is that most rifles won't zero the same with different ammo. Another problem would be that you wouldn't know what round you had loaded next. What if you were only able to get one shot off at a Taliban fighter crouching behind a truck bed and the round you fired didn't penetrate because it broke apart? That would suck.

Federal Tactical is a hollow point. It's what we use at work.

The reason why the rounds recommended are 55 grain is because that's also the weight of most training ammo. That way your training ammo and defense ammo will both shoot close enough to each other that it doesn't make a difference at training ranges.
Gotcha...so better to err on the side of penetrator than not...better to have it go through him than never hit. Along the same lines, how often would a bad guy actually make it through a hit when it just went through? I read about soldiers having to shoot guys multiple times, but is that more of a random thing? The way it sounds is that it happes a lot.

Regarding 55 grain...not considering the cost of the rounds, would it be better to practice and rely on a heavier round? (not planning on practicing with $1/round ammo, just wanting to understand the inner-workings of it all).
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:47 PM   #1838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemoves View Post
Gotcha...so better to err on the side of penetrator than not...better to have it go through him than never hit. Along the same lines, how often would a bad guy actually make it through a hit when it just went through? I read about soldiers having to shoot guys multiple times, but is that more of a random thing? The way it sounds is that it happes a lot.

Regarding 55 grain...not considering the cost of the rounds, would it be better to practice and rely on a heavier round? (not planning on practicing with $1/round ammo, just wanting to understand the inner-workings of it all).
For short ranges 55gr and 62gr have simular trajectories so you can set your zero with 62gr and practice with 55gr to a certain point.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:24 PM   #1839
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Quote:
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Gotcha...so better to err on the side of penetrator than not...better to have it go through him than never hit. Along the same lines, how often would a bad guy actually make it through a hit when it just went through? I read about soldiers having to shoot guys multiple times, but is that more of a random thing? The way it sounds is that it happes a lot.

Regarding 55 grain...not considering the cost of the rounds, would it be better to practice and rely on a heavier round? (not planning on practicing with $1/round ammo, just wanting to understand the inner-workings of it all).
Bullet construction matters a lot more than bullet weight. 55 grn is a good all around weight.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:30 PM   #1840
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Picked up a Dan Wesson model 15 and a Fox model B 12 gauge. Need to get them out and shoot at some targets.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:36 PM   #1841
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Went to Sports Authority yesterday @ Arrowhead and they had a Savage 111FXP3 (I think that's the model number) in 30-06 on clearance for 300. Comes with what I assume is a crappy Simmons scope, but still seems like a good deal.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:12 PM   #1842
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Does it have the Accutrigger?
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:28 PM   #1843
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Does it have the Accutrigger?
Yes. Dark grey composite stock, 3-9x scope, and accutrigger. I think it also has a 4 round internal mag...not sure.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:09 PM   #1844
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Just a note on Savage rifles, they may not be pretty, but because of how they make their barrels, how they mount their barrels, and the construction of the bolt head ect, they are one of the most accurate rifles you can buy... the $300 gun you are looking at will most likely, with good ammo and so practice, out shoot rifles that cost 3-5x as much.

BUY IT lol
If you don't like the scope you can always change it out at a later date....
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:50 PM   #1845
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An Accutrigger model for 300 is a good deal.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:16 PM   #1846
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I have a Savage 338 lapua. Great starter 338. Very solid too
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:20 AM   #1847
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Anyone have a hook-up with LWRC? Looking to grab an IC when they start shipping.

-Chris
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #1848
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Scottsdale Gun Club carries LWRCi and has decent prices on them.

Last week I shot with a DPS SWAT guy who had a LWRCi shorty rifle. Nice gun.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:47 PM   #1849
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Very nice. Pending SHOT, I'm either getting the psd (8.5") or a 10.5" in 6.8.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:22 PM   #1850
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After tuesday afternoon SGC sold every last assult style rifle they had
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