Where is my oil going? Turbo seal or motor issue? - Page 2

Psychoreo · 11-24-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooBeeWRX

Isn't a flashing CEL usually a clear indicator that there's something catastrophic about to happen

It's a clear indication of an active knock.

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Acejam2k · 11-24-2012, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bako

anu news herE?

It's been a little over a week since I put on my new turbo. So far I haven't seen any noticeable oil loss, but I've only driven the car about 150-200 miles in that time span. I will be sure to post back up with results in the future.

As far as the smoke goes, it's practically gone. I'm pretty confident my issue was a leaking turbo hotside, and the oil was simply burning up. I was a bit hesitant to put my PTP turbo blanket onto my new turbo at first, as I thought that might've ended the turbos life sooner. However I then realized that my car was smoking a bit on the dyno as well, and I didn't have the turbo blanket on at that time. I have since put the blanket onto the new turbo, and it makes a huge difference. Spool comes on a lot smoother, and the TMIC stays nice and cool.

biodude · 11-24-2012, 01:19 PM

^ cool, hopefully you got it sorted out.

as far as my post, my cel is more than likely due to my flywheel and crank pulley, its given me phantom miss codes on hard pulls since the rebuild, the screech and the smokescreen, I'm still thinking ( hoping ) turbo

bako · 12-03-2012, 04:04 AM

any news?

biodude · 12-03-2012, 09:13 AM

None from me, too busy, so I'm limping along and watching my oil level until I have some free time

99imprezd · 12-03-2012, 11:05 AM

I drive 130miles highway to work and back every day (650miles/week) and burn/leak through about a quart a week.. Im guessing the rings are toast or a busted ringland maybe? Got underneath the car and valve cover gaskets are drippin pretty good.. lol. Have you looked under the car for leaks? This build (EJ20) has almost 50k on her which is a good run, stage 3 cobb, catless, 18.5lbs boost on rebuilt VF39, sti pink 565's. I am about to swap in build no2 EJ257 longblock.. which is why I am not concerned with the oil consumption for now.. aside from my leak, some oil consumption is to be expected on a boosted, performance platform is it not?

biodude · 12-03-2012, 11:57 AM

some consumption is normal. Mine (and yours) is excessive. I am seeing more and more smoke from mine, it does seem weather related though. Today was warm(ish) compared to the past week and I saw/smelled little to no oil. Maybe this week I'll have some time to do some poking around

Acejam2k · 12-03-2012, 12:14 PM

Another week has passed. My oil level seems OK. However I noticed something odd. I wipe the dipstick clean and put it back in - then I'll let the car sit overnight. When I pull out the dipstick first thing in the morning, the oil level is a good 0.5" to 1" above the Full mark. If I check it a few minutes after running though, it's just about at the full mark. I would expect that exact opposite to occur. (higher reading when warm, lower when cold)

I noticed a tiny puff of blue smoke on a cold startup, but I haven't seen it again since. I'm pretty sure it was because I took the car on a short trip, and my forged pistons/oil might not have fully warmed up. (I let it warmup for about 2-3 minutes and drove easy)

I also noticed my bumper/trunk has some black spots on it, but I don't think it's oil. My new tune is definitely running richer than my old one, so it could simply be unburnt fuel. My tuner said I'm tuned for 10.8 to 11.0 AFR, which is a bit rich. (better safe than sorry though!)

biodude · 12-03-2012, 12:23 PM

oil gets trapped in lots of places, so I would expect a higher lever reading after the car has had some time to sit vs recently run. it takes time for it all to drain back into the pan.

Acejam2k · 12-03-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biodude

oil gets trapped in lots of places, so I would expect a higher lever reading after the car has had some time to sit vs recently run. it takes time for it all to drain back into the pan.

That's very true, and the exact reason as to why I let it sit overnight. However if the level is as high as I see it - does that mean I overfilled the car?

A-man07 · 12-03-2012, 02:42 PM

An inch above the full mark is pretty excessive and will very likely result in oil going through the turbo. Drain and refill would be best.

Acejam2k · 12-03-2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A-man07

An inch above the full mark is pretty excessive and will very likely result in oil going through the turbo. Drain and refill would be best.

I only see it that high up on the dipstick after the first time removing in the morning. If I put it back in and re-read, it seems OK. However it was my understanding that if I clean the dipstick at night, put it in, and then wait til morning, the first reading would be accurate.

guroove · 12-11-2012, 12:27 PM

Mine does the same thing. Some oils tend to climb the dipstick when the car sits overnight.

Acejam2k · 12-13-2012, 12:30 AM

Update:

I checked my oil level when I got home tonight after letting the car sit for about 10-15 minutes. It looks like I'm down about 1/2 a quart after 300-600 miles or so. (2 full tanks) I also noticed that the top clear line on my Crawford V2 AOS was a bit dirty - and I also saw some blue smoke on a completely cold startup. (I've seen blue smoke puff on a cold start twice now)

I decided to remove the top hose of my Crawford AOS and vent it to a gatorade bottle. I then plugged the port on my turbo inlet. Tomorrow I am going to do some hard highway pulls, and I'm curious to see what I collect in the bottle.

I'm also wondering if perhaps I took it *too* easy on this motor during break-in. I drove it pretty cautiously for the first 1000 miles or so, but I definitely gave it some boost here and there too. At some point I will do a compression test on all 4 cylinders, and hope to get a better reading of how compression is.

99imprezd · 12-13-2012, 03:21 PM

nice.. that gatorade bottle should give you results you can see.. mine blows black smoke on WOT pulls but I noticed since I turned my boost level down.. at 16lbs I dont get the huge puffs of smoke when launching into warp speed.. I dont see any smoke? rings have gotta be smoked.. lol. Im gonna tear the motor completely down as soon as I get my new build finished, installed & broken in..

Acejam2k · 12-13-2012, 08:38 PM

I did some hard pulls on the highway today and drove for a total of 50 miles or so. Absolutely no oil in the gatorade bottle - only a small bit of water/water vapor.

I also did a compression test tonight - 140-150psi on all four cylinders. This tells me that the rings are seated OK - and that it's most likely not a shortblock issue. I also checked with my motor builder - when I had my heads refreshed, he installed all new valve seals as well. The turbo is practically brand too. I pulled the header a couple weeks back and didn't see any wetness coming from the exhaust ports. I looked around the motor again tonight and I'm unable to spot any external leaks.

Any more ideas?

Bamofo · 12-13-2012, 09:13 PM

Isnt the top port on the crawford for the vaccum? normally with that thing the drain on the bottom goes back into the case... if you want to see whats spitting out of the heads you need to take the baffled head vents and t them into a bottle... That will show you something. or you can take the bottom hose and plug it into the piece...

You mentioned that you put a vf43 on it from your td04 before... have you gotten it tuned for the new turbo? if your pulling enough timing it will push the oil past the rings regardless... that turbo is a bit bigger.

Next question is how much oil pressure are you running hot at idle, 5000, redline... cause if its not a motor issue then its going somewhere and newish or not that turbo could be showing the same signs if your running too high of pressure....

Acejam2k · 12-13-2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamofo

Isnt the top port on the crawford for the vaccum? normally with that thing the drain on the bottom goes back into the case... if you want to see whats spitting out of the heads you need to take the baffled head vents and t them into a bottle... That will show you something. or you can take the bottom hose and plug it into the piece...

You mentioned that you put a vf43 on it from your td04 before... have you gotten it tuned for the new turbo? if your pulling enough timing it will push the oil past the rings regardless... that turbo is a bit bigger.

Next question is how much oil pressure are you running hot at idle, 5000, redline... cause if its not a motor issue then its going somewhere and newish or not that turbo could be showing the same signs if your running too high of pressure....

This is a 2007 STI - not a WRX. This car has only had a VF43 on it - both the original turbo (now taken off) and the new one.

Venting my Crawford AOS to atmosphere was merely a test to see if any oil was making it *past* my AOS. Any oil that makes it past the AOS will typically get plumbed back into the turbo inlet, and get burned off. Instead, I collected it in a bottle, but I only collected water vapor - no oil.

Hot Idle: 25-30psi
Cruise: 60-75psi
WOT: 80-90psi

Bamofo · 12-14-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acejam2k

This is a 2007 STI - not a WRX. This car has only had a VF43 on it - both the original turbo (now taken off) and the new one.

Venting my Crawford AOS to atmosphere was merely a test to see if any oil was making it *past* my AOS. Any oil that makes it past the AOS will typically get plumbed back into the turbo inlet, and get burned off. Instead, I collected it in a bottle, but I only collected water vapor - no oil.

Hot Idle: 25-30psi
Cruise: 60-75psi
WOT: 80-90psi

So for your AOS... that doesn't really prove that oil isn't getting past your AOS... it only proves that with 0 Vacuum on your AOS you dont have such a significant blow by problem that would show an issue... as your turbo spools you get more vacuum on the AOS that could be sucking some oil out... but i doubt it. I was more interested in if the oil was blowing out of the heads or PCV not really the results of that... when you take the oil filler off when its running does it push lots of air out, a small bit, or huff in and out....

What pistons are in the build if I could ask...

As for oil pressure your looking good. Sorry about the non STI thing... i was up since 3am and it was a long day at work.

After all this it may be time for a leakdown to figure out where the heck its all going :-(.

aboothman · 12-14-2012, 02:14 PM

^^ Exactly. The AOS needs a vacuum source to function.

I had a similar issue recently. Burnt lots of oil and tried everything to figure it out. Light smoke, heavy oil consumption, no oil in header so heads were fine (verified by machine shop after tear down).

So I too vented my AOS into a can instead of the intake. Without vacuum pulling against the back side of the rings I was treated to a pretty impressive smoke screen...even at idle. Restoring the vacuum sources fixed the smoke, and I then knew that the rings were done.

This was confirmed once I had the engine apart. I hate to say it, but this is probably your issue too.

guroove · 12-14-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acejam2k

After some more driving yesterday I noticed a tiny bit of smoke under WOT. I'm betting its just unburnt fuel, since I'm tuned rich to be safe. It's MUCH MUCH less smoke than before. It could be old oil burning off too, since I'm sure there is a quart or more of oil cake up inside my downpipe and exhaust. Hopefully my cat isn't clogged with it. (Car pulls fine)

I'm surprised no one's brought this up before, but an overly rich AF ratio is going to cause your oil to degrade quickly. You'll see no consumption for the first 500 - 1000 miles, then all of a sudden it'll start consuming oil. It's also not good for your engine because you'll get lots of carbon deposits in your upper cylinders. Get tuned properly, not rich.

Bamofo · 12-14-2012, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guroove

I'm surprised no one's brought this up before, but an overly rich AF ratio is going to cause your oil to degrade quickly. You'll see no consumption for the first 500 - 1000 miles, then all of a sudden it'll start consuming oil. It's also not good for your engine because you'll get lots of carbon deposits in your upper cylinders. Get tuned properly, not rich.

If Bren tuned it, its not that rich where this would happen. Or we would see so many people complaining about this since he tunes quite a few people in the area.

Acejam2k · 12-14-2012, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamofo

What pistons are in the build if I could ask...

I'm running CP 99.5mm pistons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aboothman

^^ Exactly. The AOS needs a vacuum source to function.

I had a similar issue recently. Burnt lots of oil and tried everything to figure it out. Light smoke, heavy oil consumption, no oil in header so heads were fine (verified by machine shop after tear down).

So I too vented my AOS into a can instead of the intake. Without vacuum pulling against the back side of the rings I was treated to a pretty impressive smoke screen...even at idle. Restoring the vacuum sources fixed the smoke, and I then knew that the rings were done.

This was confirmed once I had the engine apart. I hate to say it, but this is probably your issue too.

According to Crawford, their AOS does not need a vacuum source to function. A vacuum will only increase the efficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guroove

I'm surprised no one's brought this up before, but an overly rich AF ratio is going to cause your oil to degrade quickly. You'll see no consumption for the first 500 - 1000 miles, then all of a sudden it'll start consuming oil. It's also not good for your engine because you'll get lots of carbon deposits in your upper cylinders. Get tuned properly, not rich.

I believe I'm tuned to around 11.1 AFR @ WOT. Is that considered "too rich"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamofo

If Bren tuned it, its not that rich where this would happen. Or we would see so many people complaining about this since he tunes quite a few people in the area.

Bren tuned the car. As I said above, I'm tuned for around 11.1 AFR I believe. I used to be tuned for 10.8 I think, but then we backed it off a bit when I switched intakes.

Shortblock compression is good. 140-150 in all cylinders.
Turbo is brand new, so it probably isn't a turbo seal.

Heads? I checked with my builder, and he put in all new valve seals when he did my refresh service on them.

Excessive crankcase pressure? I am looking into my vacuum lines now and will ensure they are all clean and clear of any debris. I also changed the routing of my bottom AOS line routing to the block. Before it had a slight up hill bend in the line - now it's all a downward slope - but this shouldn't effect oil consumption in my opinion.

guroove · 12-14-2012, 04:10 PM

ok 11.1 under boost isn't that rich. The black smoke would indicate an overly rich condition, however. Have you checked for boost leaks?

Acejam2k · 12-14-2012, 07:03 PM

Just got off the phone with Sean @ Vigilant. After describing the entire scenario and going down the list of possible items, we are both wondering if it's a leaky exhaust valve guide. I followed his break-in procedure pretty closely and it wasn't until I gave the car full boost that I started seeing oil consumption issues. This also happened to be close to the date of my tune, but I'm certain my tune is healthy - I simply didn't want to give the car full boost in the first place until I had a proper tune for this specific motor.

A potential idea we threw around was to pull the motor, and send him the entire long block. He would then be able to inspect the cross hatch and cylinders, to ensure the rings were properly sealed. We'd also replace many of the head components during this process including new valve seals (again), new valves, and new valve guides. I'm definitely not thrilled about doing this, but I have gotten this car to become pretty competitive in national/divisional SCCA events, and I'd really like to see what it can do with a reliable and powerful (300+whp) motor.

To be clear: I know built motors will use *some* oil. I'm content with 1 quart or so every 3,000 miles. But 1/2 to 1 quart every 500 miles or so is certainly excessive to me.

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11-24-2012, 01:19 PM	#28
biodude Scooby Specialist Member#: 271720 Join Date: Jan 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NEPA	^ cool, hopefully you got it sorted out. as far as my post, my cel is more than likely due to my flywheel and crank pulley, its given me phantom miss codes on hard pulls since the rebuild, the screech and the smokescreen, I'm still thinking ( hoping ) turbo

12-03-2012, 04:04 AM	#29
bako Scooby Specialist Member#: 226211 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Europe Vehicle: 2002 impreza WRX JDM blue	any news?

12-03-2012, 09:13 AM	#30
biodude Scooby Specialist Member#: 271720 Join Date: Jan 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NEPA	None from me, too busy, so I'm limping along and watching my oil level until I have some free time

12-03-2012, 11:05 AM	#31
99imprezd Scooby Specialist Member#: 198964 Join Date: Jan 2009 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: south NJ Vehicle: 2004 WRX wgn, built! WRB	I drive 130miles highway to work and back every day (650miles/week) and burn/leak through about a quart a week.. Im guessing the rings are toast or a busted ringland maybe? Got underneath the car and valve cover gaskets are drippin pretty good.. lol. Have you looked under the car for leaks? This build (EJ20) has almost 50k on her which is a good run, stage 3 cobb, catless, 18.5lbs boost on rebuilt VF39, sti pink 565's. I am about to swap in build no2 EJ257 longblock.. which is why I am not concerned with the oil consumption for now.. aside from my leak, some oil consumption is to be expected on a boosted, performance platform is it not?

12-03-2012, 11:57 AM	#32
biodude Scooby Specialist Member#: 271720 Join Date: Jan 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NEPA	some consumption is normal. Mine (and yours) is excessive. I am seeing more and more smoke from mine, it does seem weather related though. Today was warm(ish) compared to the past week and I saw/smelled little to no oil. Maybe this week I'll have some time to do some poking around

12-03-2012, 12:14 PM	#33
Acejam2k Scooby Specialist Member#: 42645 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: MA Vehicle: 2007 STI BrenTuned Crystal Gray Metallic	Another week has passed. My oil level seems OK. However I noticed something odd. I wipe the dipstick clean and put it back in - then I'll let the car sit overnight. When I pull out the dipstick first thing in the morning, the oil level is a good 0.5" to 1" above the Full mark. If I check it a few minutes after running though, it's just about at the full mark. I would expect that exact opposite to occur. (higher reading when warm, lower when cold) I noticed a tiny puff of blue smoke on a cold startup, but I haven't seen it again since. I'm pretty sure it was because I took the car on a short trip, and my forged pistons/oil might not have fully warmed up. (I let it warmup for about 2-3 minutes and drove easy) I also noticed my bumper/trunk has some black spots on it, but I don't think it's oil. My new tune is definitely running richer than my old one, so it could simply be unburnt fuel. My tuner said I'm tuned for 10.8 to 11.0 AFR, which is a bit rich. (better safe than sorry though!)

12-03-2012, 12:23 PM	#34
biodude Scooby Specialist Member#: 271720 Join Date: Jan 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NEPA	oil gets trapped in lots of places, so I would expect a higher lever reading after the car has had some time to sit vs recently run. it takes time for it all to drain back into the pan.

12-03-2012, 02:42 PM	#36
A-man07 Scooby Specialist Member#: 271525 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: BagEnd Vehicle: 07 STi 424whp/382wtq GT3076	An inch above the full mark is pretty excessive and will very likely result in oil going through the turbo. Drain and refill would be best.

12-11-2012, 12:27 PM	#38
guroove Scooby Newbie Member#: 129833 Join Date: Oct 2006 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Staten Island, NY Vehicle: 2005 Forester XT Obsidian Black Pearl	Mine does the same thing. Some oils tend to climb the dipstick when the car sits overnight.

12-13-2012, 12:30 AM	#39
Acejam2k Scooby Specialist Member#: 42645 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: MA Vehicle: 2007 STI BrenTuned Crystal Gray Metallic	Update: I checked my oil level when I got home tonight after letting the car sit for about 10-15 minutes. It looks like I'm down about 1/2 a quart after 300-600 miles or so. (2 full tanks) I also noticed that the top clear line on my Crawford V2 AOS was a bit dirty - and I also saw some blue smoke on a completely cold startup. (I've seen blue smoke puff on a cold start twice now) I decided to remove the top hose of my Crawford AOS and vent it to a gatorade bottle. I then plugged the port on my turbo inlet. Tomorrow I am going to do some hard highway pulls, and I'm curious to see what I collect in the bottle. I'm also wondering if perhaps I took it too easy on this motor during break-in. I drove it pretty cautiously for the first 1000 miles or so, but I definitely gave it some boost here and there too. At some point I will do a compression test on all 4 cylinders, and hope to get a better reading of how compression is.

12-13-2012, 03:21 PM	#40
99imprezd Scooby Specialist Member#: 198964 Join Date: Jan 2009 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: south NJ Vehicle: 2004 WRX wgn, built! WRB	nice.. that gatorade bottle should give you results you can see.. mine blows black smoke on WOT pulls but I noticed since I turned my boost level down.. at 16lbs I dont get the huge puffs of smoke when launching into warp speed.. I dont see any smoke? rings have gotta be smoked.. lol. Im gonna tear the motor completely down as soon as I get my new build finished, installed & broken in..

12-13-2012, 08:38 PM	#41
Acejam2k Scooby Specialist Member#: 42645 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: MA Vehicle: 2007 STI BrenTuned Crystal Gray Metallic	I did some hard pulls on the highway today and drove for a total of 50 miles or so. Absolutely no oil in the gatorade bottle - only a small bit of water/water vapor. I also did a compression test tonight - 140-150psi on all four cylinders. This tells me that the rings are seated OK - and that it's most likely not a shortblock issue. I also checked with my motor builder - when I had my heads refreshed, he installed all new valve seals as well. The turbo is practically brand too. I pulled the header a couple weeks back and didn't see any wetness coming from the exhaust ports. I looked around the motor again tonight and I'm unable to spot any external leaks. Any more ideas?

12-13-2012, 09:13 PM	#42
Bamofo Scooby Specialist Member#: 159743 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Plymouth Ma Vehicle: 07 STI Limited TurboMike Tuned 2.35	Isnt the top port on the crawford for the vaccum? normally with that thing the drain on the bottom goes back into the case... if you want to see whats spitting out of the heads you need to take the baffled head vents and t them into a bottle... That will show you something. or you can take the bottom hose and plug it into the piece... You mentioned that you put a vf43 on it from your td04 before... have you gotten it tuned for the new turbo? if your pulling enough timing it will push the oil past the rings regardless... that turbo is a bit bigger. Next question is how much oil pressure are you running hot at idle, 5000, redline... cause if its not a motor issue then its going somewhere and newish or not that turbo could be showing the same signs if your running too high of pressure....

12-14-2012, 02:14 PM	#45
aboothman Scooby Specialist Member#: 127745 Join Date: Oct 2006 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Humboldt County Vehicle: 06 WRX 30r 6 speed 99L EJ255 6 Speed	^^ Exactly. The AOS needs a vacuum source to function. I had a similar issue recently. Burnt lots of oil and tried everything to figure it out. Light smoke, heavy oil consumption, no oil in header so heads were fine (verified by machine shop after tear down). So I too vented my AOS into a can instead of the intake. Without vacuum pulling against the back side of the rings I was treated to a pretty impressive smoke screen...even at idle. Restoring the vacuum sources fixed the smoke, and I then knew that the rings were done. This was confirmed once I had the engine apart. I hate to say it, but this is probably your issue too.

12-14-2012, 04:10 PM	#49
guroove Scooby Newbie Member#: 129833 Join Date: Oct 2006 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Staten Island, NY Vehicle: 2005 Forester XT Obsidian Black Pearl	ok 11.1 under boost isn't that rich. The black smoke would indicate an overly rich condition, however. Have you checked for boost leaks?

12-14-2012, 07:03 PM	#50
Acejam2k Scooby Specialist Member#: 42645 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: MA Vehicle: 2007 STI BrenTuned Crystal Gray Metallic	Just got off the phone with Sean @ Vigilant. After describing the entire scenario and going down the list of possible items, we are both wondering if it's a leaky exhaust valve guide. I followed his break-in procedure pretty closely and it wasn't until I gave the car full boost that I started seeing oil consumption issues. This also happened to be close to the date of my tune, but I'm certain my tune is healthy - I simply didn't want to give the car full boost in the first place until I had a proper tune for this specific motor. A potential idea we threw around was to pull the motor, and send him the entire long block. He would then be able to inspect the cross hatch and cylinders, to ensure the rings were properly sealed. We'd also replace many of the head components during this process including new valve seals (again), new valves, and new valve guides. I'm definitely not thrilled about doing this, but I have gotten this car to become pretty competitive in national/divisional SCCA events, and I'd really like to see what it can do with a reliable and powerful (300+whp) motor. To be clear: I know built motors will use some oil. I'm content with 1 quart or so every 3,000 miles. But 1/2 to 1 quart every 500 miles or so is certainly excessive to me.