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Old 12-11-2012, 10:03 PM   #1
chris the man
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Question E85 Magnet Heater?

hey guys just wanted to throw this out there. I live in CO and last night it got down to -13degrees. im going to get a block heater soon. while that will minimally help... i wanted to see if anyone has done this.

in the diesel racing scene guys will put magnet heater on the actual fuel tank, to keep it from gelling.

has anyone tried this? i would figure it would be ok, but the thing is my magnet heater gets to 300degrees and im afraid i would catch something on fire.


any thoughts to this idea whether i mount it externally or under the back seat?

thanks so much!
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:13 PM   #2
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300* won't hurt. E85 has an autoignition temp over 550*F. I wouldn't worry about that, but other things could be damaged. Obviously you don't want to put this on or around any plastics.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvdw View Post
300* won't hurt. E85 has an autoignition temp over 550*F. I wouldn't worry about that, but other things could be damaged. Obviously you don't want to put this on or around any plastics.
this is very help full. also thought about the idea of heat TAPE. and i could wrap that around on the inside of the car.


i could get away with putting the heater on the inside on the metal that separates the tank.


i didnt not know about the 550* ignition part. thank you for the info
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:21 PM   #4
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Yeah, I don't remember the specific temp, but it could be that it's between 600* and 650* I just can't remember if that number was for pure alcohol or for E-85.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by drewvdw View Post
Yeah, I don't remember the specific temp, but it could be that it's between 600* and 650* I just can't remember if that number was for pure alcohol or for E-85.
your awesome man thanks!!!

im still really starting to consider the heat tape idea, much more
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:31 PM   #6
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Autoignition temps

Pump = 536 F
E85 = 689 F
Alcohol = 750 F

Source - http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fu...res-d_171.html
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:34 PM   #7
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Well I'll be damned. It was even higher than I thought...What was I remembering then...
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:35 PM   #8
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lol any ideas on what might help from cold start stress.

block heater
oil pan heater

and blank blank blank

lol
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:37 PM   #9
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Add more fuel in your tune for startup?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:40 PM   #10
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Add more fuel in your tune for startup?
thats what i was thinking, but its pretty much maxed out for the tune. very very rich on start up....


it does help when i pedal more, however its still a never ending 10 minute battle lol.... i dont mind


i just dont want that to hurt my car
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:44 PM   #11
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grabbed this info from a smart ass dude on awdpirates.net

The reason we have trouble starting with E85 in colder weather is simply because it does not evaporate at the same rate as gasoline. The "cutoff" point to where it starts getting ****ty seems to be somewhere around 50' F, and evaporates less and less (obviously) as the temps drop from that point. Because there's only 15% gasoline in E85, at lower temperatures there is less vapor in the cylinder, which makes the AF mixture harder to ignite.

Your ECU has several tables in it whereby it will start adding fuel as the coolant temperature drops, to compensate. This becomes more important with E85, but there's also a fine line where adding TOO much fuel during cranking will saturate the cylinder and snuff out the spark.

Block heaters do help, this is a fact, but what it all comes down to is simple physics, and finding that sweet spot where you spray just the right amount of fuel at the right temperature to get the engine to start with minimal fuss."
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:51 PM   #12
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Honestly, just run 91 octane in the winter. That's what I'm planning to do.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris the man View Post
grabbed this info from a smart ass dude on awdpirates.net



Your ECU has several tables in it whereby it will start adding fuel as the coolant temperature drops, to compensate. This becomes more important with E85, but there's also a fine line where adding TOO much fuel during cranking will saturate the cylinder and snuff out the spark.
That is exactly what I was talking about. I had to play with that last winter after I had to crank it about 25 times to start. Got fed up and started playing with that table and got it perfect.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:08 AM   #14
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I wonder if it would be possible to heat the intake manifold with some sort of inlet heater. I know it has been done quite a bit on N/A cars.

Heating 15gal of fuel would require a lot more energy/time than heating the IM.

If it were me, I'd probably just switch to pump or blend it to even out the gasoline/ethonal ratio.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:42 AM   #15
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when I lived in kansas, i used to use my NX bottle warmer on my intake manifold, it did help alot with cold start, mazdaspeed proteges were notorious for having sh** cold start maps. my hypothesis was, hot air will make fuel evaporate off the head walls and ignite easier.

i had it hooked up to a battery charger for 12v supply, would lay it on the manifold and go inside

morning came around, i would plug in the extension cord i had running from it to my house inside before i hopped in the shower.

start up fine every time

also, if you want to heat the fuel, i remember my dad on his old chevelle would run coiled up hard fuel line inside a coffee can mounted in the engine bay with ice in it to cool the fuel (more fuel per volume) so i imagine something like this would work if you coiled it around a heat source.

some of the airplanes run the fuel line near the exhaust to warm it as well.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:54 AM   #16
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^They also use their fuel to help cool the hydraulics systems.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:54 AM   #17
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There are fuel line heaters that can be powered from a switched source. They take about a minute to heat up to full temp on a 24v system, not sure how long on a 12v. The can be had in different sizes and lengths. The ones I have seen are intended to be used on a metal hard line, not sure how they would work on flexible hose.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:09 PM   #18
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Hmm. Maybe some heat trace tape along the intake manifold runners would work. It works good for keeping pipes from freezing.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:02 PM   #19
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Seems a lot easier to just plumb a solenoid line into the intake manifold and start it on propane (like those small Coleman propane canisters)

Heating the entirety of your fuel tank takes a LOT of energy. Heating the intake manifold is more practical, but you're still likely plugging something into the wall.
I think plumbing in a little Coleman bottle is the ultimate solution. There's solenoids available for RVs and such, and all you'd really need is some line, a fitting, one of those solenoids and a normally closed momentary relay on the 12v acc. That opens for some adjustable amount of time when it gets power.

Anyway, I live in CA, so it's not a big deal, but that was what I would try if I lived somewhere that gets lower than the ~25F it sometimes gets around where I live. I quickly came to the realization that heating anything would take a crap-ton of energy and was only practical via extension cord.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:07 PM   #20
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Hmmmm, you may be onto something...I've never heard of anything like that, but I have heard of full propane conversions.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:43 PM   #21
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fwiw, coolant goes through the throttle body already, which would warm up the air if you had a block heater, and would then warm up the fuel

unless you did the "no throttle body heater" mod
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:12 PM   #22
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IMO, it would not help to heat up the fuel in the tank. By the time the e85 makes the long trip through the fuel lines and to the injectors it will be whatever temperature the fuel lines were at, which would be the same as the outside temp.

At times temps here get into the single digits, luckily it's usually just a short winter blast, but I've never cranked my car, even at those temps, for ten minutes.

What issue I do have...above 45 degrees it starts the same as if on gas, between ~25-40 degrees it takes about 3-6 tries to fire off with an occasional fit where I'm wondering if I'll be walking to work, below 20, even into the teens and single digits it starts with 1-2 short stabs at the starter. It actually starts better as it gets colder. In my case I know the car starts better as the temps drop below a certain level which makes me think my fueling/whatever maps it uses to start needs fine tuning in certain areas. IIRC, one of the tables uses air temp to compensate, no doubt, mine could be better. What I wonder is if yours may need fine tuning, unlike gas, just a little off w/e85 and it's a bear to cold start.

Anyhow, have you thought about a heat lamp or just a rough service rated incandescent light bulb wedged under the intake? A bulb socket w/pigtail can be had for cheap at the hardware store, plug it up just like a block heater. If you wanted to leave it their maybe make some kind of, 'nest' from a small amount of insulation?

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Last edited by k mier; 12-12-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Seems a lot easier to just plumb a solenoid line into the intake manifold and start it on propane (like those small Coleman propane canisters)

Heating the entirety of your fuel tank takes a LOT of energy. Heating the intake manifold is more practical, but you're still likely plugging something into the wall.
I think plumbing in a little Coleman bottle is the ultimate solution. There's solenoids available for RVs and such, and all you'd really need is some line, a fitting, one of those solenoids and a normally closed momentary relay on the 12v acc. That opens for some adjustable amount of time when it gets power.

Anyway, I live in CA, so it's not a big deal, but that was what I would try if I lived somewhere that gets lower than the ~25F it sometimes gets around where I live. I quickly came to the realization that heating anything would take a crap-ton of energy and was only practical via extension cord.


- Get one portable propane torch and pliers.
- Pop hood and pull big vacuum hose off brake booster.
- Insert propane torch tip into brake booster hose.
- Crank propane to full open.
- Take your time getting back in the driver seat so it can load up with gas.
- Crank the engine, it will start instantly.
- Quickly go back under the hood shutting the propane valve and reconnecting the brake booster hose.
- Explain this daily operation to your co-workers as they stop to help when they see you fooling with things under the hood and its 10*F outside


For the first couple years I had my car I did it like this. It will start on propane INSTANTLY regardless of how cold it is (tested to -0F). Only needs to get running for a second and you can shut the propane off. Just the heat from a few combustion cycles will get the combustion chambers hot enough to promote good enough fuel suspension of E. I fought cold starts with E winter 2009 and 10. Since then the code for cold cranking and warm up enrichment has been cracked and written to the tables in RR. Also got some big injectors helping things now, so far no issues, but its early in winter and has not dropped much below 30....
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
- Get one portable propane torch and pliers.
- Pop hood and pull big vacuum hose off brake booster.
- Insert propane torch tip into brake booster hose.
- Crank propane to full open.
- Take your time getting back in the driver seat so it can load up with gas.
- Crank the engine, it will start instantly.
- Quickly go back under the hood shutting the propane valve and reconnecting the brake booster hose.
- Explain this daily operation to your co-workers as they stop to help when they see you fooling with things under the hood and its 10*F outside

For the first couple years I had my car I did it like this. It will start on propane INSTANTLY regardless of how cold it is (tested to -0F). Only needs to get running for a second and you can shut the propane off. Just the heat from a few combustion cycles will get the combustion chambers hot enough to promote good enough fuel suspension of E. I fought cold starts with E winter 2009 and 10. Since then the code for cold cranking and warm up enrichment has been cracked and written to the tables in RR. Also got some big injectors helping things now, so far no issues, but its early in winter and has not dropped much below 30....
I figured propane would work, I didn't see any show stoppers, good to know the concept is proven then.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:19 AM   #25
chris the man
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you guys are all wrong...

i found the eeasiest way to get it started.

last night i cut a hole under the back seat and into the fuel take. i dropped the magnet heater in just like ice fishing.


problem solved.




but really GREAT INFO ON HERE!!! YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!! im running propane.injection
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