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Old 12-11-2012, 07:08 PM   #526
SubieEngineer
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^ Yeah, that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Isn't that considered changing the pick-up point of the control arm? I see what you are saying, and agree with you, in fact i argued the same thing at a Divisional event...but have been told otherwise by some SCCA officials.
If *SP specifically allows offset suspension bushings, and alignment changes as a result of those bushings, then I don't see why an offset bushing that changes a suspension point wouldn't be allowed *SP and beyond. I'd challenge that to an SCCA official in a heartbeat.

This

Quote:
Originally Posted by *SP
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials
(except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset
bushings may be used.
Followed by this

Quote:
Originally Posted by *SP
Changes in alignment parameters which result directly from the use
of allowed components are permitted.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:09 PM   #527
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You can change the mount...but it has to bolt into the stock location and the bushing cant be offset from the original location.

***^^^Beat me to it***

Last edited by polyol; 12-11-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:31 PM   #528
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Ah I stand corrected 16.1 E

But then thinking you can pick and choose between rule sets. I would choose the *sp bushing language for this paticular mod and leave the mount alone on the cheap if I read that correctly.

Or build control arms with all the geometry you want and use spherical that attach to factory locations. If money is of no interest.

I think I've had this conversation with myself before...

Last edited by mccanixx; 12-11-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:06 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
HA!!! Sorry. You know why I'm peaking in here more lately...

hmmm 9k revving SM goodness for 2014
Bring it surfer boy. My little white GC will totally spank that black bugeye of yours

Also, if you're thinking of running the 2.3 deal, after chatting around the consensus was it's not worth it unless you bore it back to 2.5 for the low end torque. I know it's not as big of a deal at the big show, but just sharing the 20 minutes of talking I did.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
btw I dig yer bugeye!
Thanks! She's a lot of fun so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by polyol View Post
You can change the mount...but it has to bolt into the stock location and the bushing cant be offset from the original location.

***^^^Beat me to it***
This is pretty much the same thing i said...offset bushings are not legal.

ALK attaches in the stock location...and is not legal because it relocates the bushing even though it mounts to the stock location. So, again, confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
Ah I stand corrected 16.1 E

But then thinking you can pick and choose between rule sets. I would choose the *sp bushing language for this paticular mod and leave the mount alone on the cheap if I read that correctly.

Or build control arms with all the geometry you want and use spherical that attach to factory locations. If money is of no interest.

I think I've had this conversation with myself before...
I was gonna ask about 16.1 E up top...but i see you already stumbled across it. It's a slippery slope...agreed. I however, did loose this argument with a protest at one of our Divisional races.

I see what you mean about the ruleset not lining up there...you should be able to use the *SP ruleset and call it a day. I would think as long as the housing remains stock, the bushing should fall under the open bushing rules...but they claim the bushing is the pickup point for the control arm...which isn't wrong either.

Anyone else been involved in a protest or decision on this topic?
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:56 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post

But ALK attaches in the stock location...and is not legal because it relocates the bushing even though it mounts to the stock location.


Correct...
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:39 PM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
I see what you mean about the ruleset not lining up there...you should be able to use the *SP ruleset and call it a day. I would think as long as the housing remains stock, the bushing should fall under the open bushing rules...but they claim the bushing is the pickup point for the control arm...which isn't wrong either.

Anyone else been involved in a protest or decision on this topic?
It's the pick and choose part that makes the bushing legal if you don't choose the other allowance. 16.1 B

I don't know if it's still bharmer@scca.com anymore or if there is a different email address for technical, rule questions now. That is who I'd ask for clarification.

My car would be SM legal coming from ESP. I have them.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:02 PM   #533
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It's still bharmer and that's who I asked for clarification.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:21 AM   #534
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parts that move with vertical suspension displacement are unrestricted in SM. the bushing housing pretty clearly doesn't move when you displace the suspension (it is bolted to the chassis afterall) so you don't have any allowance to modify it. however one could make an argument that the bushing itself does move with vertical suspension displacement (via compliance or rotation, etc) and thus is unrestricted.

so an ALK that uses a replacement bushing housing that does not match the stock part dimensionally is illegal but an ALK that uses offset bushings inside a stock (or stock sized alternate per 16.1.P) bushing housing is legal.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:39 AM   #535
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Offset bushings as explicitly allowed. We had the ALK protest in ASP at our national tour. The protestor achieved the effect with offset bushings the protestee used the offset mounts. The protest was upheld.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:02 PM   #536
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lol...all of this over a modification that would be lucky to net you a tenth.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:32 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polyol View Post
lol...all of this over a modification that would be lucky to net you a tenth.
Add them up
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:40 PM   #538
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Add them up
Truth...
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:48 AM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polyol View Post
lol...all of this over a modification that would be lucky to net you a tenth.
not the point. The ALK can simply be resolved w/ a 0.1s penalty if it goes to protest. The issue is what does taking the ALK to an extreme mean? You're changing a suspension pick up point so why not change the point much further so it actually can make a huge difference. Take it further, what happens when your competitor changes a suspension pick up point and that different car is dramtically different. That's what is important to stress to the n00bs who don't understand why SCCA classes are seperated the way they are.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:09 AM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polyol View Post
Truth...
One of my cousins went through boot camp and came back with a saying that applies to cars as well as ruck sacks. Ounces make pounds and pounds make pain. Even if it's only shaving an ounce here or there, or making a small modification, they all add up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxologist View Post
not the point. The ALK can simply be resolved w/ a 0.1s penalty if it goes to protest. The issue is what does taking the ALK to an extreme mean? You're changing a suspension pick up point so why not change the point much further so it actually can make a huge difference. Take it further, what happens when your competitor changes a suspension pick up point and that different car is dramtically different. That's what is important to stress to the n00bs who don't understand why SCCA classes are seperated the way they are.
I've had a lot of people ask why their 2.5rs hood on a regular L impreza puts them in SM. After showing them a 2 lbs carbon hood that will almost bend in half it's so flimsy they get the point. The rules aren't built to be unfair, they're built to allow modifications far beyond what the noobs consider.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:26 AM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxologist View Post
not the point. The ALK can simply be resolved w/ a 0.1s penalty if it goes to protest. The issue is what does taking the ALK to an extreme mean? You're changing a suspension pick up point so why not change the point much further so it actually can make a huge difference. Take it further, what happens when your competitor changes a suspension pick up point and that different car is dramtically different. That's what is important to stress to the n00bs who don't understand why SCCA classes are seperated the way they are.
No no, I get it.

My point, (and this goes around in circles at my local club every year) is WRX/STi's show up (usually noobs) jump into SM and the ALK conversation always comes up and I have to explain. I usually dont even care if they do stay in SM because they are rarely a threat.

In the end there are other legal ways to gain caster than changing the lower suspension pickup geometry.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:01 PM   #542
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Crawford got 412WHP/453LB-FT out of their 2.0L BRZ at the Modified magazine shootout. Tons of low end torque.

The Innovate twin-screw supercharger also did well.

Now where is my extra $20K!

Last edited by dwx; 03-18-2013 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:52 AM   #543
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Hey guys, I am having trouble with figuring out an interpretation of the SM rules on the subject of engine bay bracketry.

We know from 16.1.D that drivetrain components are unrestricted (other than limitations on block origin, displacement, and fuel system requirements). Here are my questions on this:

(1) Is this rule why it is legal to run a turbo blanket or header/UP/DP wrap?
(2) Does this rule mean that ANY brackets in the engine bay are removable/replaceable?
(3) Does this rule mean that only brackets attached to the engine block itself are removable/replaceable?


My guesses are:
(1) Yes?
(2) No; only if they interfere with the new engine block you swap into the car (see minor bending, notching, adjustment rule)
(3) Maybe? If they allow complete engine swaps and say that drivetrain is "unrestricted", then can we say any bracket attached to said drivetrain part (engine) is part of the drivetrain?

(3) confuses me, because I would like to look into a lightweight alternator bracket now that I have removed my a/c system. But it seems like the rules are pretty specific on other things that can be removed or replaced. There is really no nomenclature in the rules on bracketry or coatings/wraps, which is why I wanted to ask you guys what your interpretation is.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:40 AM   #544
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Well you can run whatever alternator you want so long as it outputs the same or more than stock, so you should be allowed to modify/replace the bracket for it. Though I would say any bracket on the engine and almost all the ones in the engine bay can be removed from one allowance or another, at worst it would be one of the most weiny protests ever.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:14 AM   #545
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Yeah considering you can swap the entire engine and the one you put in there might have a different alternator bracket I think you are probably safe.

I have a non-AC Impreza alternator bracket for sale if you want one.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:48 AM   #546
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What does the non-AC bracket weigh? I pulled the AC off a long time ago, but left the big aluminum piece as there was other low hanging fruit. I'll likely build my own, but just curious on weight.

For the brackets, anything that attaches to the engine/trans/rear end/whatever I'll remove if it's not used. Example: the green brackets of death over the injectors were gone almost immediately. Any bracket that was used to hold an emissions sensor or what not has also been removed. The brakes and uprights are open, so you can remove bits there and grind on them if you wanted too.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:50 AM   #547
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Yeah on my SSM car I cut off a tab and ground on the tranny for down pipe clearance. And I've got a huge stack of wiring harness brackets from that car that went on parts of the engine harness that are either not used anymore (like air bags) or completely moved due to different sensor locations on the engine.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:40 PM   #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
What does the non-AC bracket weigh? I pulled the AC off a long time ago, but left the big aluminum piece as there was other low hanging fruit. I'll likely build my own, but just curious on weight.
Ok, I guess this was a case of me coming down with the stupids. I will admit that after removing the a/c compressor and looking at that 1/2" thick bracket that held the compressor and alternator, that I thought it was made of steel and weighed quite a bit.

If it is truly just made of aluminum, then maybe the weight savings would not be nearly as much as I originally assumed. Whoops!

I didn't take the time to take it off the car to see, since I needed to get the car back to driveable to go to work.

Anyways, it was more of a question of how you guys are using the rules to back up the various brackets you remove, or the wraps and blankets you use. I just want to make sure I understand the rules correctly.

Per leafy's comment- what allowance or rule allows you to remove brackets from the engine bay itself? (not connected to engine. let's say connected to engine bay or strut towers) Agreed it's weiny, but still want to tear out things correctly!
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #549
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It all depends on what the brackets are connected to. And I think there is a standing rule in SM to not be a ****.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:57 PM   #550
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Well guys I can no longer be in SM. Different front bumper beam did it (V Mount). Ideas on what class to go up to so I can start looking at rules?
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