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Old 12-12-2012, 04:20 AM   #1
Matty_STi
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Default Built EJ257 EFR 8374 6xx awhp

Most of the below info is out of date but I want to keep it here to show where my build ideas started. I will see how the engine-turbo-trans combo I am planning for my STi work before doing my 818 build

**Edited the thread title to reflect the status of the build**

So this is the build thread for the engines for both my 2012 sti sedan and my FFR 818.

I plan on pretty much creating the exact same engine for each car. **Perhaps not anymore, we will see **

This is right at the start of my project so there is lots to be done, hopefully by the fall of next year I have at least one engine done and running.

Right now I could use some advice on a few parts others I am already settled on.

The goal is for a daily driver with the ability to put out about 650hp at the wheels. I also want a very very quick revving engine that will do 9500 safely (not that I would spend any time there but head room is a key to this build), so there will be a focus on lightness in components to help achieve that. More than likely that will be reserved for track time (not big into drag racing I prefer autox, rallycross, road course).

Cost; I am fairly well off so this build will be over done enough that 700-750 whp should be no problem, not that I ever will seek that, I'm not greedy. But I am going to spend the money up front to get the best components I can get, no I won't throw money at things but if I have to spend I will, if I spend 15-20k or more per engine well so be it, would rather have it done right the first time and not spend way more in the long run on rebuilding engines because I was cheap initially.

Every day power would probably be in the 400-500 whp range. I am keeping my stock block and turbo for my sti in case something blows up i have an a quick replacement I can drop in. Turbo is a twin scroll .92 BW EFR 8374. I looked at messing around with variable holsets but that will be a project for a track only car with an H6. Also stuck doing this on pump 94 as E85 isn't available where I am. Though I can order bulk 94 and make higher octane with xylene, toluene or something else (I spent a hell of a lot of time in univ working on inorganic and organic chem so I can safely deal with dangerous solvents, reagnets, etc) or just order an unleaded oxengated race fuel.

Parts:

Block: pinned, o-ringed, darton sleeves, in a 704 shortblock (inspired by junior's build before he sold it)

Crank: Not sure yet, was thinking of a cosworth or arrow (though I think arrow makes the cosworth), will have it nitrided, cryo'd and wpc'd

Bearings: No clue, not sure if mahle's are the best these days but I have seen there is some problems with tolerances with ACL bearings and king bearings are an unknown quantity. I need some definite help here.

Con Rods: 3MI's rods are super sexy, getting them in a 300M 2mm+ light weight version would be right up my alley. Plus Micah knows his ish! I am not discounting doing titanium rods in the quest for lightness (yes I am well well aware of the problems with titanium and the issue of scratches).

Pistons: 8.5 cr JE FSR. Had lots of good experience with JE pistons in other applications and from what I read here they seem pretty awesome. Though if anyone has a suggestion on a lighter but equally robust piston I am all ears or if 3MI releases a piston I will go with that. Also looking at stock piston bore size to start out because more chances for hones later.

Rings: total seal, I just think gapless is the way to go, less blow by is always a good thing.

Wrist pins: either the standard ones that come with a je piston or paeco titanium ones.

Bolts/studs: arp 11mm 625 head studs, and the just arp stuff in general all around.

Gaskets: cosworth head gasket, stock for everything else. may look at hylomar sealant as additional insurance.

Heads/cams/valvetrain: Cosworth heads and cams and valves (+1mm), inconel exhaust, stainless intake, ti retainers, high rpm springs. Possibly ferrea valves not set on cosworth for that, and not set on cosworth for cams but I am just not a fan of what I am hearing about crower, kelford and gsc. Open to suggestions.

Intake manifold: building my own out of carbonfiber composite, I have many years working with CF in sailboats and also in acoustic products. Also have lots of experience in CFD so I think I would rather try this one out on my own. I of course will be sharing what I find and anyone willing to offer advice and help are more than welcome to. I will do a separate thread for my intake manifold.

Headers+exhaust: custom equal length inconel headers and down pipe, ewg (twin tial 38mms should do it), titanium cat back.

Throttle body: skunk2 72mm dbw

Intercooler: spearco custom air-2-water. Lighter, colder, less piping, plus unique, will put a water reservoir in the back.

Cooling: rad, oil and tranny cooler all from mishimoto (and fans).

Crank pulley: ati super damper. taking dampers off I always see as a bad idea. Also will look at some roger clark cam ti cam pulleys (maybe on this one). And cosworth heavy duty timing belt plus cosworth billet timing belt guide.

water/meth: not a big fan of this idea, but I may play around with it.

ECU: motec or syvecs, leaning towards syvecs s8 right now.

Fuel system: blergh, have to sit down and work out the numbers for this. haven't settled on any vendors either. this will be something I deal with later on in the project.

Clutch/flywheel: leaning towards clutch masters fx400 6 puck sprung hub and lightweight alu flywheel. open to suggestions of course, just have lots of experience with CMs gear.

Tubro: The aforementioned borgwarner efr 8374 .92a/r twin scroll with external wastegates

Coatings/treatments: everything I can get coated with the various swaintech coatings I will, also the whole engine will be sent out for wpc treatment. Swaintech stuff is amazing and their coatings really do provide peace of mind, used their stuff before to great success. (the whole outside of the engine is going to be coated with the black body emitter to really bring engine heat down while tracking it.)

Extra's: well tgv deletes will happen, crawford aos, I am going to make sure the rotating components are as finely balanced as possible. will make sure everything is ported as well as it can be. I am really going to focus on proper air and exhaust flow and efficiency. DEI wraps all over the place. etc. etc. etc.

There are lots of other supporting upgrades but they belong in other threads. There will be a full car build thread. This is just a focus on the motor.

I am currently on a wait list for my efr (le sigh) so yeah, early spring I think I will start the actual buying of parts. The wait is so that I can get the list together of exactly what I want/need, lay out the plan, proper funding, cost estimates and quotations/budget and make sure contact with all associated vendors has been made. I do lots of project management so this will be handled as such. The 818 engine will come later after the first is built and verified to that it is everything that I set out, if not then changes will be made for the 818 build.

This will be slow and methodical and any advice and support is of course appreciated. I am well versed with stock subies and built small blocks, and high hp hondas, nissans, Supras, and RX-7's so not my first rodeo though I am new to high power subarus so some questions may be noobish (I've also lurked here for about 4 years, just recently joined though).

Matt
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Last edited by Matty_STi; 02-01-2013 at 09:52 PM. Reason: edited the thread title to reflect the status of the build
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:50 AM   #2
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just nice.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:51 AM   #3
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Sounds like a bada** project good luck!
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:40 AM   #4
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What have you heard about Kelford or GSC cams that you didn't like? Those are the brands that the majority of the people who make real power run.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:04 AM   #5
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Syvecs all the way!! MoTeC is a laugh compared to these............

If you want to keep some money in your pocket an S6 would actually do what you want unless you want a lot of additional sensors. I ran an S6 and have swapped to an S8 but at around 5k USD they ain't cheap..... but good stuff never is.

Jasper.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:25 PM   #6
Matty_STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
What have you heard about Kelford or GSC cams that you didn't like? Those are the brands that the majority of the people who make real power run.
kelfords breaking, incorrect tolerances, that sort of stuff. Just some poor quality control. That being said, I won't discount a company or product outright unless they have treated people badly. Every company has had a bad run of product it happens, those things get fixed and everyone moves on. I am leaning towards cosworth cams as they seem to just be in a better place right now.

Oiling: killer B pickup, pan, baffle, upgraded cosworth pump (with the revs I'm looking for probably an 11mm), mishimoto oil cooler, port and polish of all oil flow areas.

Seems I am leaning towards cosworth for quite a few things, expensive yeah, open to suggestions for alternatives of course.

Matt
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:32 PM   #7
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if money is not a huge deal, why not go to a Tilton carbon clutch?

also why not go drysump, especially with high revs and track time?

(fwiw, I have no experience with either, just an internet engineer over here)
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:34 PM   #8
Matty_STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
Syvecs all the way!! MoTeC is a laugh compared to these............

If you want to keep some money in your pocket an S6 would actually do what you want unless you want a lot of additional sensors. I ran an S6 and have swapped to an S8 but at around 5k USD they ain't cheap..... but good stuff never is.

Jasper.
Well Motec has been around the block in a big way the m800 is a serious ecu. But yeah I really really like the syvecs stuff. I am wanting to go S8 for the 2 knock sensors (may do the upgrade to 4 because hell why not), 2 egt and 2 lambda sensors plus the software is fully unlocked with more memory for data logging. Get the gps/accelerometer (10hz) addon and I am golden!

I am about 95% towards the syvecs versus the motec.

Matt
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketperson7 View Post
if money is not a huge deal, why not go to a Tilton carbon clutch?

also why not go drysump, especially with high revs and track time?

(fwiw, I have no experience with either, just an internet engineer over here)

Never thought of a carbon clutch, this is a daily driver though so I want to still be able to leave stop lights without lighting up the tires. Though that being said I have absolutely no experience with tilton anything or carbon clutches so I could be talking out of my butt on this one.


I thought long and hard about dry sump but I really don't want to spend the time doing the maintenance on them. They are so much more work then just a regular oiling system. They are hugely expensive upfront and routine maintenance is just a pain. If I find that my current oiling setup is lacking I will switch over to dry sump but in this case tried and true is where I want to put my money for now. I may do dry sump for my 818 build as that is a car I am more willing to play around with and down time on that will be less painful to deal with emotionally lol.

Matt
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:41 PM   #10
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Just an Fyi, I run cosworth cams and wouldn't hesitate to run them again but if you search hard you'll find just as many cosworth failures and issues as you'll find with Kelford if not more. Every manufacturer of aftermarket cams out there has some amount of failures but in the end Kelford makes some of the best cams in the business.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:44 PM   #11
Matty_STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Just an Fyi, I run cosworth cams and wouldn't hesitate to run them again but if you search hard you'll find just as many cosworth failures and issues as you'll find with Kelford if not more. Every manufacturer of aftermarket cams out there has some amount of failures but in the end Kelford makes some of the best cams in the business.
I'm keeping an open mind. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:52 PM   #12
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from what I've read, Carbon clutches have the most stock-like engagement with zomg torque capacity

they're just $$ so not as many forum-goers use them, they use rock hard on/off switch clutches
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:00 PM   #13
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I have pistons
The pistons that come with the Honey Badger shortblock, that TIC carries, is just one of the crowns that I offer.

As for your wrist pin, if you want to upgrade from the OTS pin and have durability with our cylinder pressures, I'd go with DLC 9310 wrist pins. JE can supply them in certain sizes. I have to custom order mine. Skip the titanium.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:21 PM   #14
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Here is another nice clutch option. Very light weight.
http://www.quartermasterusa.com/qm/s...eg-billet.html
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:28 PM   #15
Matty_STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
I have pistons
The pistons that come with the Honey Badger shortblock, that TIC carries, is just one of the crowns that I offer.

As for your wrist pin, if you want to upgrade from the OTS pin and have durability with our cylinder pressures, I'd go with DLC 9310 wrist pins. JE can supply them in certain sizes. I have to custom order mine. Skip the titanium.
I think I am going to need to schedule a call with you so I can pick your brain. The more 3MI stuff I can get the better. I was looking at the DLC 9310 wrist pins. If I can skim some weight I am down.

High and quick revving are the name of the game (and yeah less titanium the better, it's expensive and difficult to handle).

Matt
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:33 AM   #16
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Crank: Honest save the money, and go with a balanced stock crank.

Bearings: Nothing but ACL's

Con Rods: Corrillo rods are light and durable, plus I know a place that sells for close to manley I beam prices if you have them build your motor(which I'd recommend)

Pistons: 8.5 cr JE FSR. Had lots of good experience with JE pistons in other applications and from what I read here they seem pretty awesome. Though if anyone has a suggestion on a lighter but equally robust piston I am all ears or if 3MI releases a piston I will go with that. Also looking at stock piston bore size to start out because more chances for hones later. Good choice but I'd do minimum of 9:1

Gaskets: I'd just do copper sprayed stock head gasket, works all the time.

Heads/cams/valvetrain: There are tons of heads out there that flow better and cost less then cosworth. There cams are just whatever too, I think kelford and GSC make ones that walk all over theirs

Intake manifold: building my own out of carbonfiber composite, I have many years working with CF in sailboats and also in acoustic products. Also have lots of experience in CFD so I think I would rather try this one out on my own. I of course will be sharing what I find and anyone willing to offer advice and help are more than welcome to. I will do a separate thread for my intake manifold. Interesting to see

Headers+exhaust: custom equal length inconel headers and down pipe, ewg (twin tial 38mms should do it), titanium cat back. Inconel, that will be expensive

Throttle body: skunk2 72mm dbw

Intercooler: spearco custom air-2-water. Lighter, colder, less piping, plus unique, will put a water reservoir in the back. Not sure if I have seen a air-water that weighed less then a air-air, not ideal for street duty

Turbo: I think you'll find the .92 a/r housing will be a choke point.

Other then that I think you will have a hard time making that amount of power unless your doing it on a dynojet with good fuel.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:07 AM   #17
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Damn...There's some serious coin being dropped in this thread. Why not just go with a billet block and heads? I mean seriously, you've got that kind of coin, call up Bullet Cylinder Heads in Australia. Last I heard they were making a billet 2.5L block. I bet that they could do a closed deck version if theirs isn't already.

You need to hurry up and finish this project so I have some amazing reading material.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project_skyline View Post
Crank: Honest save the money, and go with a balanced stock crank.

Bearings: Nothing but ACL's

Con Rods: Corrillo rods are light and durable, plus I know a place that sells for close to manley I beam prices if you have them build your motor(which I'd recommend)

Pistons: 8.5 cr JE FSR. Had lots of good experience with JE pistons in other applications and from what I read here they seem pretty awesome. Though if anyone has a suggestion on a lighter but equally robust piston I am all ears or if 3MI releases a piston I will go with that. Also looking at stock piston bore size to start out because more chances for hones later. Good choice but I'd do minimum of 9:1

Gaskets: I'd just do copper sprayed stock head gasket, works all the time.

Heads/cams/valvetrain: There are tons of heads out there that flow better and cost less then cosworth. There cams are just whatever too, I think kelford and GSC make ones that walk all over theirs

Intake manifold: building my own out of carbonfiber composite, I have many years working with CF in sailboats and also in acoustic products. Also have lots of experience in CFD so I think I would rather try this one out on my own. I of course will be sharing what I find and anyone willing to offer advice and help are more than welcome to. I will do a separate thread for my intake manifold. Interesting to see

Headers+exhaust: custom equal length inconel headers and down pipe, ewg (twin tial 38mms should do it), titanium cat back. Inconel, that will be expensive

Throttle body: skunk2 72mm dbw

Intercooler: spearco custom air-2-water. Lighter, colder, less piping, plus unique, will put a water reservoir in the back. Not sure if I have seen a air-water that weighed less then a air-air, not ideal for street duty

Turbo: I think you'll find the .92 a/r housing will be a choke point.

Other then that I think you will have a hard time making that amount of power unless your doing it on a dynojet with good fuel.
I am going with a different crank for lightness and strength, sure it's more expensive but I am in a big search for a really fast revving engine.

I am nervous about acl stuff from the recent threads about some issues folks are having.

Looked at carillo rods, but I do love what 3MI is doing. Micah has some sick ideas! What's the name of that shop you mentioned? You can pm if it shouldn't be public.

I doubt I will go 9:1, the gains won't really be much from what I have seen other than increase chance of detonation with the fuel I have access too. Now that being said I am searching for a different option. Won't post anything about it until I really have a solid Idea.

Not set on anything head wise. Still looking at the numbers. But I do greatly appreciate the suggestion!!

Gonna go with the cosworth head gasket, there are some serious builds that have used them without fail. Plus I don't want a messy sprayed copper gasket getting everywhere.

Yes the exhaust setup will be expensive but it will never crack under heat stress.

Air to water can be lighter when done properly (especially when comparing the amount of cooling I can get), plus the weight is centered and a in a far more optimal spot than a giant FMIC that hangs a tonne of weight way out in front of the wheels. Not doing a drag car, this thread is about the engine build but the car is gonna be built to turn and do it well not just go fast in a straight line (that gets boring quickly to me). As for the street I should have no problem with air-2-water. Used them before without issue. Far less chance of heat soak and if there is it is a whole lot less mass to get heat soaked so it can cool off faster. Win win win win in my books.

I am trying a .92 a/r to see if the restriction versus increased spool up is worth it. If not I will go bigger hotside. the '83' is a 79lb turbo, I think 650 is possible with some rev's. And hey, if not, slap a 91 on there and go for broke. Plus I have some tricks up my sleeve.

Anyways thanks man! I appreciate the suggestions!!! Keep em coming!

Matt

Last edited by Matty_STi; 12-13-2012 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:25 AM   #19
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The .92 housing currently only comes as an IWG model. You'll have to go with the 1.04 housing if you want twin scroll and EWG.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvdw View Post
Damn...There's some serious coin being dropped in this thread. Why not just go with a billet block and heads? I mean seriously, you've got that kind of coin, call up Bullet Cylinder Heads in Australia. Last I heard they were making a billet 2.5L block. I bet that they could do a closed deck version if theirs isn't already.

You need to hurry up and finish this project so I have some amazing reading material.
Go big or go home. Besides doing it right the first time is cheaper in the long run.

hrmmm billet block... I don't want to go too crazy now but that does excite me.. This could get a whole lot more expensive really quickly with ideas like that! lol

oh I should add, if I hit 600+ I am happy. 650 would be sick but anything above 600 is fine by me!
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
The .92 housing currently only comes as an IWG model. You'll have to go with the 1.04 housing if you want twin scroll and EWG.
Yeppers, going to have to do something to shut the internal.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty_STi View Post
Go big or go home. Besides doing it right the first time is cheaper in the long run.

hrmmm billet block... I don't want to go too crazy now but that does excite me.. This could get a whole lot more expensive really quickly with ideas like that! lol

oh I should add, if I hit 600+ I am happy. 650 would be sick but anything above 600 is fine by me!
Ooooooh...I was halfway kidding. If you do get it, you MUST take tons of pics. I want to see this thing.

You said it yourself, go big or go home. So are you going home or are you getting that billet block?
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:56 AM   #23
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Ooooooh...I was halfway kidding. If you do get it, you MUST take tons of pics. I want to see this thing.

You said it yourself, go big or go home. So are you going home or are you getting that billet block?
lol, well I am already at home, and that block gave me a big chubby, so both? hahaha

I do want to do 2 of the exact same engines, so if it's the cost of a new wrx I will probably pass... But it's nice to dream!

Screw it, I'm just gonna swap an LSX in and drop 1800 at the wheels!!!
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:07 AM   #24
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Subscribed! Looks good, I'm doing a similar build with Micah but less whp and a tight budget. Have you looked into having Headgames do your heads? Xdrian's car made 828whp on stock sized valves! Good luck!
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:06 AM   #25
3MI Racing
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
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Originally Posted by drewvdw View Post
Damn...There's some serious coin being dropped in this thread. Why not just go with a billet block and heads? I mean seriously, you've got that kind of coin, call up Bullet Cylinder Heads in Australia. Last I heard they were making a billet 2.5L block. I bet that they could do a closed deck version if theirs isn't already.

You need to hurry up and finish this project so I have some amazing reading material.
Has Bullet gotten one of the billet subies running yet? I haven't heard any updates from Ben on his.
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