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Old 12-15-2012, 02:07 PM   #1
Nomadgene
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Default Wolves, sheep and sheepdogs.

Not a word in AKIC about yesterday's incident in Connecticut. Not too sure what to think about that.

I know that the news is running nonstop with this story but something so affecting and profound should warrant at least some mention here, shouldn't it?

I realize this is a car forum but damn. This is a subject that touches all of us.

Renewed talks of gun control will surely be on the political forefront now with this latest heinously repulsive act.
Something I came across long ago, sent from a friend. I'd like to share it with you all. I encourage you to send this to everyone you know. REmember, this wasn't written yesterday in the aftermath. This was written YEARS AGO. I recalled it's message and it triggered a search. Chills ran up my spine reading this again.

http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/...sheepdogs.html
"On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth."



Food for thought. I know where I stand. I know what I am. Do you?
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:26 PM   #2
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How many times, lately could one armed citizen who was willing and capable of decisive action have prevented tragedy? By sheer numbers we all are far less likely to meet a violent assault or death than say 2 centuries ago. People might be fooled by numbers-there are simply more of us so, statistically we are less likely to run across a villain but they are still out there. It is easy to believe the myth of the protective government. Easy to call for more "control" over firearms. It is a huge measure of personal courage to assume responsibility for having lethal force at one's disposal, much less using it in a sue-happy society. Personally, I'd rather have a means to respond to the unexpected, but I venture out without more often than not. Why? Calculated risk, I suppose. Most people would rather call for increased measures for all after the fact as opposed to full punishment for a guilty individual. For me it is a matter of responsibility which I find lacking in our fading Republic. There are wolves, yes. Perhaps that isn't a good analogy since wolves kill for food. Rabid dogs, perhaps? Putting down such an animal is done impassively-it simply needs to be done. If I had a child would I want an armed guardian at their school? Yes. Criminals don't observe gun laws. May the families involved in this tragedy find a measure of peace someday. May we all never grow so callous and jaded that such mindless violence has no affect on us.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:03 PM   #3
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Mike I've read LTC Grossman's book and found it to be a VERY big eye opener, I believe it was 2010 or 2011 he was here doing a lecture at APU I think. He hits the nail on the head on so many different points in his book and yes folks it was written over 10 years ago and his studies were based on SLA Marshall's findings during WW2


As for this renewed push that will happen for gun control laws to be stricter on the masses , any politician that uses this kind of mass tragedy to pass his agenda ( because he can't get it passed any other way ) is not worth the votes he received and should be removed. Look folks guns are not the damn problem in this country they are nothing more then a tool , yet they will blame the gun and once again sweep the real issue under the rug and not speak of it... Since 1982 there have been 61 mass murders and of that 42 of them were white and pretty much all had one thing in common with each other...they were all MENTALLY ILL and that boys and girls is what really needs to be addressed in this country because it is already beyond out of control. And to say "well he seemed healthy " or " she was always an angel " and say there was no signs they were ill...listen America take your friggin blinders off and open your bloody eyes to the world around you!
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:44 PM   #4
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Having read some of the comments of people with regard to the school shooting - it is scary to think that some would like nothing better than for authorities to raid homes and take guns.

So many sheep in this world and so few sheepdogs. If there were more sheepdogs there would likely be much less tragedy. The denial I hear from some people is mind-boggling at times.

I'm not sure what the answer is to curbing these incidents but imposing gun control on those who may legally purchase, own and carry is the wrong approach. Banning certain weapons does nothing but cripple the honest citizen - those permitted by law and constitution to own weapons. If some had their way, the only people left with weapons would be thugs. This can not happen.

It's an old cliche' but it holds so much truth - If guns kills people, than pencils misspell words.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:50 PM   #5
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Mike, it was mentioned.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=928

And there were responses. It is a sensitive subject. Some stuff is so appalling that it needs a moment to sink in with some people. A one day delay isn't too surprising.

Thanks for the thread, though. It's good to discuss these incidents that affect us all. I don't have kids, but I have several nieces, nephews and loved ones with children, so I definitely feel for any involved in this tragedy.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #6
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Chano I believe he was referring to AKIC not having a thread up for it not the whole of nasioc
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:56 PM   #7
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I know. I linked my post in OT because it's OT. My statement still stands regarding why there might have been a delay.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:21 PM   #8
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How does a post that stays on topic in it's own thread belong in off topic?
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:33 PM   #9
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i think he means that this topic was brought up in AKIC OT already yesterday when you said it wasnt brought up at all
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:35 PM   #10
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My Wife just showed me Morgan Freeman's Facebook response to this tragedy. I think its insightful and makes some good points. I don't have a direct link handy but it shouldn't be hard to find.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:51 PM   #11
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Ok so what you guys are saying is that something of this magnitude only warrants a mention in a off topic thread where it would eventually have been buried and forgotten ?

Really folks the things Nomad posts are done to expand your brains and your awareness of the world around...but if you kids feel like you all need to keep walking around this world with blinders and be oblivious then by all means continue on and be the sheep ..I for one choose to have my eyes wide open!

End of my rant and .02
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:10 PM   #12
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im not saying such an event should only be contained in AKIC OT but it was brought up, so Nomad cant say it wasnt. period. nothing more do i mean by that.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:19 PM   #13
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I agree with Sonny. This latest ___hole was no wolf. A wolf is a noble creature, a social pack animal who kills for food and to protect it's young. This creep who shot his mom in the face then killed the kids in her school was a mangy, deranged, rabid, sick mutt, at best. The words of Grossman were an analogy for certain. I think we all know the point he was making, even if he could have chosen better animals.

I can barely imagine a more cowardly act in my wildest imaginings. I think a solution to this is to do just like the Israeli's do. ARM the hell out of the teachers and place a trained soldier or two at each school as part of their duty day.


I didn't see it mentioned before, Chano. I don't read each and every single word of every post. I think you would agree that this event warranted more mention than what it received in your post.

I've been here a long while. I know it is a car forum. I have made many close friends here over a decade or more. We can't possibly all see each other with our work schedules and travels. This is a commonplace we have gathered for years. Is it so out of place to discuss such things in an open forum when the thread had it's own heading? Personally, I don't think so.

You don't have to click on it if you don't want to read it.

You that have em. Hug those little ones a bit tighter, keep em close. Peace out!

Last edited by Nomadgene; 12-17-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:29 PM   #14
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"75,000 annual deaths related to alcohol http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/.../#.UM7CaaUZfww

45,520 annual deaths by vehicle in 2005. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5807a1.htm

36,000 deaths in 2008 from drug overdose, most of those drugs were prescription http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/rxbrief/

32,000 annual deaths due to firearms http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/reso...ection%201.pdf

The first three examples are of situations that are highly regulated, often put in the hands of large governmental and corporate agencies with enormous resources to develop the best safety protocols available. The last, as you can see, is how guns measure up. Of course I didn't go for the easy bait of tobacco or obesity death rates. Nor did I pick on the horrible failure of the war on illegal drugs.

The recent events, and all events of mass murder by firearms makes your stomach sick and even poisons your soul to hear about. They are thoughts that haunt your sleep and make you paranoid for the future of the country, not to mention your own family. I understand, feel the same way, and wonder how to make the madness stop.

However...The first three links I posted are items not covered by the US Constitution. Nor are tobacco and obesity. They are not rights provided to us by this country's founding fathers. Our founding fathers wanted the citizens of this nation to form a well armed militia...perhaps it's time that we educate our citizens about firearms. We are not at war with an invading army on our own soil, but there are terrorists among our population..not a particular race or creed but they are of a certain warped mindset. Teach people how to safely handle, shoot, and carry firearms. De-mystify it all. Educate your average citizen on what they are all about. I know scads of people who are afraid of guns simply because they have no idea how to handle one. They wouldn't know the first thing about safety around a firearm because they never learned. Why is that? Why do we allow our nation to be educated about firearms through action movies and TV shows that celebrate violence, killing, mayhem. FCC RAILS against the "wardrobe malfunction" of the Superbowl where a woman's nipple was spotted a few years ago but doesn't blink an eye when there is a scene of a machine gunner mowing down crowd of people in some movie. How out of place is that?

Ban guns? No. Regulate guns? Yes, within reason. Regulate the education about guns? Absolutely.

Bad guys are already teaching themselves, inspired by their own twisted head. Taking guns away from them won't stop them. I just have to point at Timothy McVeigh to prove that point. Why are we not leveling the playing field for the good guys?"

One of my classmates, who was a paramedic like me, wrote this. I copied and pasted it to my Facebook site. I wanted to share it here as well.

Last edited by Nomadgene; 12-17-2012 at 05:16 PM. Reason: a little addition
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #15
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Since I am on lunch my thoughts might be jumbled and a bit incoherent... (just fair warning)

The problem with today's society is that we have become somewhat shells of our former selves and have allowed the government to gain more control and regulation in every facet of life. An unforseen consequence to this is we have then inturn lost some (or most) of our "responsibility". This has created more "sheep" that follow mindlessly the herd, and shrug off any responsibility as if it's not their fault, but the governments for not protecting them and telling them what is wrong or right. The media, which some may argue is controlled by the wolves, aids in this by selective reporting. After all... did anyone know that at the mall shooting there was a man with a CCW permit, whom had teh suspect in his sights, and claims the suspect took his own life after realizing someone else was armed? http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-ma...183593571.html

One could argue just as Mike above, that had the teachers, whether all or some, had a weapon an PROPER training, the very sight of someone with a weapon couldve diffused the situation more quickly.

Anyway, back to sheep and dogs. It is becoming ever more present in today's society of sheep that the sheep dogs are in danger. The wolves tend to paint a picture for the sheeple, that the sheepdogs are either militants against the government, are extremists trying to "ruin" the common way of life, or are in some way mentally "off". The wolves will then use acts like this to further their agenda and push for stricter gun control.

The problem is most DEFINITELY not "the gun", it is, has been and always will be the "person behind the trigger". Education on gun control, safety and care, as well as what and how to use it if you carry should be more paramount than restricting it. This education, IMHO, should be given to EVERY citizen, regardless of if they plan to own a gun or not. Reason's are 2 fold. The more you know, the less you fear as well as for self defense. One will never know if a non-gun owner winds up with a gun pointed at a suspect.

Mike, you are correct that taking guns away wont stop them, however are missing a point on why the playing field hasnt been leveled. A disarmed society is easier to control. As a government, would you want to have the whole of your population armed, as denoted in the Constitution, to rise up against tyranny? OR, if in power, would you try and make it illegal so there could be no resistance?
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:20 PM   #16
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I think some sort of national service should be mandated for citizenship in this country. I don't propose to have all the details worked out in my head but I think what the Israeli's do is a good start. Those able bodied, MALE AND FEMALE, should have to do some sort of military service and learn to use a weapon properly. Those opposed can serve in other ways, like FIRE, EMS, Law Enforcement, Corrections officers, Border Patrol, TSA agents, etc. . It could stem the tide of some of our employment problems by mandating some sort of 3-4 year service to the country. Just some thoughts.

China has some of the toughest laws on Gun Control in the world. It wasn't long ago that a knife wielding citizen killed 20+ young kids in their schools. There have been at least two other knife wielding attacks there as well.

You take away the guns, the problem remains.

So if you take away the knives….what are we gonna cut our steak with then?

I appreciate the wink Ben. I missed no point, just wanted to get people thinking and talking about it.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:52 PM   #17
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I'm sad that a lot of people have turned this into a carry a gun/don't carry a gun argument. This is not political. It is a tragedy and the conservatives and liberals have jumped on their respective bandwagons.

sad
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:55 PM   #18
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I'm sad that a lot of people have turned this into a carry a gun/don't carry a gun argument. This is not political. It is a tragedy and the conservatives and liberals have jumped on their respective bandwagons.

sad
Agreed.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:43 PM   #19
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrcRS View Post
I'm sad that a lot of people have turned this into a carry a gun/don't carry a gun argument. This is not political. It is a tragedy and the conservatives and liberals have jumped on their respective bandwagons.

sad
Sad and perverse. The truely uncomfortable question for me becomes: who are the people listening to those who are using something like this to push an agenda? Who are the people being swayed? I pose this question to everyone:
If enough people didn't pay attention to sensationalist media, would horrors like this be as prevalent? It's easy to blame the media for the way they report events but without a rapt audience, would they be in business? I can't think of any easy answers. I don't think there are any.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:07 PM   #21
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:36 AM   #22
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The front page on todays ADN says it all.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:01 PM   #23
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The front page on todays ADN says it all.
It is difficult to know what you are referring to. I get the paper online and today's online edition says "Pied for Providence at scenic park".

Please enlighten me.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:34 PM   #24
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"Latin Americans happiest people on planet"
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:35 PM   #25
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After hanging with Carlos and you folks last weekend, I have no doubts.

I am really looking forward to developing that relationship.
The future is bright, mi amigo.
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