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Old 12-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #6701
Maxwell Power
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I don't go leaner than .81 Lambda. I try to maintain around .79- .8 lambda.

Tuning for max power output doesn't take into account heat soak, slight changes in temperature etc. Leave some on the table for your customers' sake.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #6702
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Going to (gas-referenced) 14:1 wasn't intentional in my case. The pull before netted blowing off the reference line on the FPR as it was not zip tied after breaking the seal from when it was put on from the factory. I meant to have the guy zip tie it, but we both forgot.

I recognized right away, fixed and kept pressing on.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 12-06-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:06 PM   #6703
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I agree with you completely. I usually have anyone else's car I tune at .78-.8 lambda whether it is an aggressive map or not, and that is also what I set my daily map at on my personal vehicle. On my personal vehicle's aggressive map, I usually will target .79lambda at peak leaning out to .82 lambda by redline, but the power difference really isn't all that much on this map vs. the richer daily map. So, because of that, this map is only used when every little bit of power possible is desired.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:51 PM   #6704
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Originally Posted by BigRob74 View Post
i plan on e85 in the spring, what top mount are you running? how much boost?
FMS TMIC 17psi.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #6705
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I don't drive much, but when I do...I ease it to the floor.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:47 PM   #6706
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Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
I don't drive much, but when I do...I ease it to the floor.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:48 PM   #6707
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Originally Posted by tyrel.boyce View Post
I will vouch for anyone going E85 that its way better than 93 and will make your car a lot happier!!! I had so many issues with check engine lights on premium fuel, put new injectors and switched to E85 and a good tune and the cars been never happier. E85 FTW!!!!
I second this!
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:31 PM   #6708
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I'm looking to make the switch to e85 in the spring when I swap turbos. As someone who is new to the concept are there any threads or websites you'd recommend? I have some newb questions and looking to learn more from those of you who have already made the switch.

1) Do you test the e85 for every fill up or just spring/fall when they could have gone to the winter mix? Along the same line of thought if I'm filling up from the same e85 station once or twice a week should I just test monthly?
2) How often (if ever) do you switch back to unleaded (I heard one person say they recommend running a tank of 93 for every 10 - 12 tanks of e85?
3) I am planning to run 93 in the winter and e85 in the summer since the car is a DD? Are others with "real" winters doing the same?
4) There is one station 10 minutes from my house but the next 2 closest are 30 - 40 minutes away. Do e85 stations have it available all the time, every time?
5) As far as I can tell from the forums I'd have only the 2nd ever 5th gen legacy running on e85 so there's not a whole lot of knowledge on the subject. Even called IAG about tuning and it's something they said they weren't very familiar with. Should I just stick to 93 rather than run e85 on an untested platform with a daily driver?
6) When switching back and forth do I need to pump the gas tank dry or just run it till it's on E and fill all the way up with the other (I'm guessing it's the later)
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:53 PM   #6709
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Originally Posted by acumenhokie View Post
I'm looking to make the switch to e85 in the spring when I swap turbos. As someone who is new to the concept are there any threads or websites you'd recommend? I have some newb questions and looking to learn more from those of you who have already made the switch.

1) Do you test the e85 for every fill up or just spring/fall when they could have gone to the winter mix? Along the same line of thought if I'm filling up from the same e85 station once or twice a week should I just test monthly?
2) How often (if ever) do you switch back to unleaded (I heard one person say they recommend running a tank of 93 for every 10 - 12 tanks of e85?
3) I am planning to run 93 in the winter and e85 in the summer since the car is a DD? Are others with "real" winters doing the same?
4) There is one station 10 minutes from my house but the next 2 closest are 30 - 40 minutes away. Do e85 stations have it available all the time, every time?
5) As far as I can tell from the forums I'd have only the 2nd ever 5th gen legacy running on e85 so there's not a whole lot of knowledge on the subject. Even called IAG about tuning and it's something they said they weren't very familiar with. Should I just stick to 93 rather than run e85 on an untested platform with a daily driver?
6) When switching back and forth do I need to pump the gas tank dry or just run it till it's on E and fill all the way up with the other (I'm guessing it's the later)
1. I installed a flex fuel sensor and gauge in my 2011 for some piece of mind when I initially switched to E85. For a while I was testing every couple fill ups to check for changes in blends. Now, after tuning many cars on E85 at various blend levels, I learned that if you target the correct AFRs for a known blend percentage, AFRs stay with in a good range even if you run higher or lower ethanol blends. I've tested and verified this within 70% up to 90% ethanol blends. I haven't encountered anything higher or lower from a pump. I always strongly recommend having wideband o2 gauge with E85 so you know if you get a bad fill up (less than the normal 70% minimum) for some reason.

2 & 3. I initially though I would switch back every few tanks and then run 93 in the winter. Now that I've run E85 for so long, there's no way in hell I'm every putting gasoline back in my tank. I've had zero issues running E85 for 12,000 miles over 10 months now *knock on wood*. I plan on pulling my injectors soon to check that they are clean as I expect them to be. In cold regions, E85 is supposed to be blended down to 70% ethanol during the winter. This, in combination with the proper tuning from someone that knows what E85 needs for smooth cold starts and warm ups allows it to run just as well as gasoline year round.

4. That is hard to answer. Generally, E85 tanks are specific to E85. They are buried deeper and should not normally be used when a station feels like putting E85 in them. I've heard of stations dropping E85 completely due to lack of sales but I haven't seen in my area. I would say you should call the station and try to find out their long term plans with their E85 pump.

5. We don't have any 5th gen LGTs around here so I haven't tuned one myself but from what I've seen on the open source forums, there is plenty support for this platform if you wanted to go the open source route for tuning. I don't know about Cobb but would guess there is good support there as well. If you are already planning a turbo swap on your DD, you might as well go E85 as well. Its going to need a tune either way.

6. If you still decide to switch back to gasoline, you could get away with running the car down the E and filling up with the fuel you are switching too. It would be best drive easier for the first tank after you switch to be on the safe side.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:14 PM   #6710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post

1. I installed a flex fuel sensor and gauge in my 2011 for some piece of mind when I initially switched to E85. For a while I was testing every couple fill ups to check for changes in blends. Now, after tuning many cars on E85 at various blend levels, I learned that if you target the correct AFRs for a known blend percentage, AFRs stay with in a good range even if you run higher or lower ethanol blends. I've tested and verified this within 70% up to 90% ethanol blends. I haven't encountered anything higher or lower from a pump. I always strongly recommend having wideband o2 gauge with E85 so you know if you get a bad fill up (less than the normal 70% minimum) for some reason.

2 & 3. I initially though I would switch back every few tanks and then run 93 in the winter. Now that I've run E85 for so long, there's no way in hell I'm every putting gasoline back in my tank. I've had zero issues running E85 for 12,000 miles over 10 months now *knock on wood*. I plan on pulling my injectors soon to check that they are clean as I expect them to be. In cold regions, E85 is supposed to be blended down to 70% ethanol during the winter. This, in combination with the proper tuning from someone that knows what E85 needs for smooth cold starts and warm ups allows it to run just as well as gasoline year round.

4. That is hard to answer. Generally, E85 tanks are specific to E85. They are buried deeper and should not normally be used when a station feels like putting E85 in them. I've heard of stations dropping E85 completely due to lack of sales but I haven't seen in my area. I would say you should call the station and try to find out their long term plans with their E85 pump.

5. We don't have any 5th gen LGTs around here so I haven't tuned one myself but from what I've seen on the open source forums, there is plenty support for this platform if you wanted to go the open source route for tuning. I don't know about Cobb but would guess there is good support there as well. If you are already planning a turbo swap on your DD, you might as well go E85 as well. Its going to need a tune either way.

6. If you still decide to switch back to gasoline, you could get away with running the car down the E and filling up with the fuel you are switching too. It would be best drive easier for the first tank after you switch to be on the safe side.
Yup. What he said.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:14 PM   #6711
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Only thing i don't like about E85 in the winter is i can't use my remote start...it's actually really annoying. The car wont start unless you touch the gas pedal and give it about 5-10% throttle. Once you touch the pedal, it fires right up and idles great...

Stupid cold weather.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:16 PM   #6712
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Wrxtcy. What kind of E85 sensor setup are you using?
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:19 PM   #6713
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Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
Wrxtcy. What kind of E85 sensor setup are you using?
Probably one from a junkyard E85 flex fuel vehicle haha. It's the easy way.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:21 PM   #6714
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Only thing i don't like about E85 in the winter is i can't use my remote start...it's actually really annoying. The car wont start unless you touch the gas pedal and give it about 5-10% throttle. Once you touch the pedal, it fires right up and idles great...

Stupid cold weather.
Unless you are dealing with crappy injectors with a poor spray pattern, this behavior should be something that can be tuned out.

I've even got my wife's car starting and warming up nearly perfect (has a slight idle hunt 30 - 45 seconds after starting until it warms up). It took a bit more work, probably because it has the EJ207 so there's no TGVs.

Who tuned your car?

If you're OS tuned and want some help messing around with the warm up stuff, let me know.

Last edited by WRXt4cy; 12-17-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:28 PM   #6715
WRXt4cy
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Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
Wrxtcy. What kind of E85 sensor setup are you using?
I nabbed a sensor from a Tahoe out of junk yard and wired it to the Zeitronix ECA gauge.





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Old 12-17-2012, 04:31 PM   #6716
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Hell yeah. I like their stuff. How do you like it.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:31 PM   #6717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
1. I installed a flex fuel sensor and gauge in my 2011 for some piece of mind when I initially switched to E85. For a while I was testing every couple fill ups to check for changes in blends. Now, after tuning many cars on E85 at various blend levels, I learned that if you target the correct AFRs for a known blend percentage, AFRs stay with in a good range even if you run higher or lower ethanol blends. I've tested and verified this within 70% up to 90% ethanol blends. I haven't encountered anything higher or lower from a pump. I always strongly recommend having wideband o2 gauge with E85 so you know if you get a bad fill up (less than the normal 70% minimum) for some reason.
For the record, I tested all the time when I first started running E85, but after realizing that the ethanol content variation never pushed my afr outside the acceptable ranges, I stopped testing it. I usually try and use the same gas station(s) when possible to keep things consistant, but from my testing, it really doesn't matter too much if tuned properly. I played around with mixtures awhile back, and I didn't get any negative effects (including knock) with anything ranging from 60-90% ethanol with zero changes to my tune. Like you said, if the tuner properly targets afr to begin with, then pretty much no matter what the ethanol content is from the pump, you pretty much will run an acceptable afr. This also means that someone only needs 2 maps essentially when they are planning to switch back and forth instead of 4 different maps (one for E85, one for E15, one for E70, and one for 93oct). This makes things significantly easier on the customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Only thing i don't like about E85 in the winter is i can't use my remote start...it's actually really annoying. The car wont start unless you touch the gas pedal and give it about 5-10% throttle. Once you touch the pedal, it fires right up and idles great...

Stupid cold weather.
I ran into this same issue over here in GA. I tried playing with the cold start enrichment tables for a long time. Eventually I got it about as good as I could get it, and finally just decided it wasn't worth messing with anymore. I really don't mind it at all since my car doesn't have a remote start on it, but I can definitely see where it would be annoying not to be able to use a feature on the vehicle during certain times of the year, when you paid good money to have this feature available.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:35 PM   #6718
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Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
Hell yeah. I like their stuff. How do you like it.

Both the sensor and the gauge have been 100% flawless from day 1. The sensor actually seem to be accurate with .5 to 1%. It always reads 69 or 70 and this is consistent with the fact that Iowa has switched to a 70% blend year round for the time being. When I traveled to CO over the Summer, it seemed to accurately report the blend going higher and this was reflected in my fuel trim and WOT AFRs.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:26 AM   #6719
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This is very good info. Thank you very much. Not sure why everyone else on the internet says everyone on NASIOC is an asshat (lulz).

The 5th gen Legacy platform is IMO very unique and there is very little real world experience around unlocking what the true potential really is (only sold in the US for 3 years and I'm only aware of 3 people who have done turbo upgrades).

Really curious to see how unique things like the following start to behave once you "go big": OEM ELH, Dual AVCS, bottom mount turbo (no up-pipe, full boost by 2800rpms) and 6 speed WRX transmission (5 speed WRX with shaved cogs to fit 6 gears in)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
I always strongly recommend having wideband o2 gauge with E85 so you know if you get a bad fill up (less than the normal 70% minimum) for some reason.
Already added a boost gauge and will likely add wideband and oil pressure (but might pull them from the AP real-time initially).

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
I would say you should call the station and try to find out their long term plans with their E85 pump.
Definitely on my "to do" list

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
We don't have any 5th gen LGTs around here so I haven't tuned one myself but from what I've seen on the open source forums, there is plenty support for this platform if you wanted to go the open source route for tuning. .
Nobody has experience turning 5th gens and there is no open source. I called IAG about tuning the other day and they've had 1 5th gen there ever and it was just being tuned for an exhaust. There is no open source for the 5th gen so don't really have an option there (I'm already running Cobb AP with 3" AVO TBE).
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:11 AM   #6720
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I have been running E85 daily in MN for close to 2 years. Probably 20-25k miles. I have a wideband O2 gauge to monitor AFR's and they really don't vary much between winter and summer blends. I would highly recommend this gauge.

I have never put pump gas into my car since switching to E85. About a year ago I pulled my injectors and had them tested and they all checked out fine. I don't have any start up issues in the cold.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:30 AM   #6721
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Originally Posted by acumenhokie View Post
The 5th gen Legacy platform is IMO very unique and there is very little real world experience around unlocking what the true potential really is (only sold in the US for 3 years and I'm only aware of 3 people who have done turbo upgrades). Really curious to see how unique things like the following start to behave once you "go big": OEM ELH, Dual AVCS, bottom mount turbo (no up-pipe, full boost by 2800rpms) and 6 speed WRX transmission (5 speed WRX with shaved cogs to fit 6 gears in)

I also am curious to see how the new style routing effects performance, but as far as ELH, dual AVCS, and low-mount turbos, the experience and knowledge of HOW to go about extracting the power is defintely there. The low-mount turbo setup may be new to an OEM Subaru, but guys have been doing low-mount setups for a long time now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by acumenhokie View Post
Already added a boost gauge and will likely add wideband and oil pressure (but might pull them from the AP real-time initially).

The afr from the accessport is not accurate during open loop fueling. A wideband will be needed to get accurate readings of the afr.


Quote:
Originally Posted by acumenhokie View Post
Nobody has experience turning 5th gens and there is no open source. I called IAG about tuning the other day and they've had 1 5th gen there ever and it was just being tuned for an exhaust. There is no open source for the 5th gen so don't really have an option there (I'm already running Cobb AP with 3" AVO TBE).

You are incorrect here sir . There is definitely opensource support for 5th gen's, and there are definitely some guys over on romraider that have already been tuning them for a little while now. Generally, as far as subarus go, if there is accessport support, opensource is either already there or quickly follows it. Also, if you have the ability to use the accessport, then you have the ability to be tuned by anyone with the race tuner licensing for multiple vehicles.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:36 AM   #6722
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Only thing i don't like about E85 in the winter is i can't use my remote start...it's actually really annoying. The car wont start unless you touch the gas pedal and give it about 5-10% throttle. Once you touch the pedal, it fires right up and idles great...

Stupid cold weather.
You really have to play with the cold start/ cranking tables. Mine will fire right up in our coldest weather which never gets below single digit temps F really, but still pretty damn cold. It has a bit of an AFR wander for the first minute or so but that's it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:50 PM   #6723
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Unless you are dealing with crappy injectors with a poor spray pattern, this behavior should be something that can be tuned out.

I've even got my wife's car starting and warming up nearly perfect (has a slight idle hunt 30 - 45 seconds after starting until it warms up). It took a bit more work, probably because it has the EJ207 so there's no TGVs.

Who tuned your car?

If you're OS tuned and want some help messing around with the warm up stuff, let me know.
ID1000 injectors...so shouldn't have injector problems. I'm on accessport...but any insight or suggestions would be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
I ran into this same issue over here in GA. I tried playing with the cold start enrichment tables for a long time. Eventually I got it about as good as I could get it, and finally just decided it wasn't worth messing with anymore. I really don't mind it at all since my car doesn't have a remote start on it, but I can definitely see where it would be annoying not to be able to use a feature on the vehicle during certain times of the year, when you paid good money to have this feature available.
I havn't brought it back to the tuner yet to address the issue, but it may not be able to be fixxed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 340Duster View Post
You really have to play with the cold start/ cranking tables. Mine will fire right up in our coldest weather which never gets below single digit temps F really, but still pretty damn cold. It has a bit of an AFR wander for the first minute or so but that's it.
Car fires up every time and idles perfectly...the only issue is i have to very lightly touch the gas pedal to get it to fire up the first try. It def. gets colder where you are than down South here.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:42 PM   #6724
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
ID1000 injectors...so shouldn't have injector problems. I'm on accessport...but any insight or suggestions would be helpful.



I havn't brought it back to the tuner yet to address the issue, but it may not be able to be fixxed.



Car fires up every time and idles perfectly...the only issue is i have to very lightly touch the gas pedal to get it to fire up the first try. It def. gets colder where you are than down South here.
Yeah, injectors weren't my problem either. I have FIC Bluemax injectors, and I have never seen a single set of those with a crappy spray pattern. I played with the cold start/warm up tables ALOT. I richened them little by little to the point that the car was so rich it would flood out and not start for 5 mins (approx 8.5-9:1 gas afr right at start up), and then went the other way and leaned things out little by little until it got to the point where the car was so lean it was misfiring (approx 16.5-17:1 gas afr right at start up). After working on it for literally every night for about two weeks straight, I just put it at the setting that gave the closest to best results (on cold mornings this was right about a 10.5-11:1 gas afr right at startup), and called it good.

I think that this issue is similar to the issue a select few people have had getting the ID2000's to idle on the stock ECU. Some people have issues, but alot of people don't. It doesn't necessarily mean that the tuner hasn't adjusted all the tables and settings properly. It just means that every setup is a little bit different, and what works perfectly on one setup, may not work perfectly on another.

In my case, I think that switching to speed density plus maybe bumping fuel pressure up 10-15psi would probably fix all the issues that mine had, but like I said before, when I looked at the hassle of retuning everything on speed density vs. the hassle of having to touch the gas pedal ever-so-slightly on the HANDFUL of mornings here in south GA that are below 35* every year, it was an easy choice for me to just tolerate it and move on.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:03 PM   #6725
Maxwell Power
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Location: Marysville, WA
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There is waaaaaaaay more to fuel injectors than spray pattern and peak flow rate. There are lots of things that affect the way an injector behaves. ID is the only company to test for all those traits and match injectors to each other.

If you've had problems, it's likely the injectors. Especially if you're running FIC.
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