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Old 12-18-2012, 11:56 AM   #1
gpshumway
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Default 50k mi of UOAs - 2010 Outback 3.6R - M1 is Good!

I've been planning to post these for a while. Finally got around to it.


These are the UOA results from my dad's 2010 Outback 3.6. M1 0w40 and 0w30 have been used exclusively for the last 30k miles. Nice low Iron numbers except for the first M1 UOA, which was just after some accident repairs so I suspect lots of really short trips into and around the body shop. Oil is labeled on an empty line. 0w30/40 indicates a blend of M1 0w30 and 0w40 (I don't have the exact mix, I'll see if my dad kept records). The 3.6R has a ~7qt sump IIRC, and my dad hasn't always been able to get enough of the 0w40. Now that he's done a couple of runs with the 0w30, I think we're going to switch to it exclusively. Seems to hold up well, and is a bunch cheaper than the 0w40 when purchased in the 5qt jug at WM. The one quart of make up oil in the 31,687 mi UOA was totally unnecessary and was Pennzoil HM 5w30. The short trip from the hotel to the gas station (~1 block) caused oil to sit in the heads and the dipstick to read unrealistically low. I'm not sure about the make up oil in the next UOA, I'll have to ask my dad.

His driving is primarily highway, say 80%+. His shortest regular trip is 12 mi to town, and he does lots of trips of 170+ mi from Northern Minnesota to the Twin Cities. He does see absolutely frigid temperatures in the winter though, thus the use of 0w oils.

Cliff's Notes:
Nothing to fear from Mobil 1 0w30 in a N/A Subaru, even the new ones with timing chains (which are supposedly harder on oil). Also, Pennzoil Platinum works well.

Enjoy!



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Last edited by gpshumway; 12-18-2012 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Stupid fat fingers.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:29 PM   #2
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Your engine also isn't turbocharged, which is particularly harsh on oil.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:50 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
Your engine also isn't turbocharged, which is particularly harsh on oil.
THIS....


Thanks for the info, but under "extreme" duty M1 still sounds like more of a bomb to me...
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Aaron'z 2.5RS View Post
THIS....


Thanks for the info, but under "extreme" duty M1 still sounds like more of a bomb to me...
Mobil1 Resource Conserving xW-30 maybe, but that's not the only oil they make.

And a few brave souls have run the new GF5 RC xW-30 oils in WRX's with good results.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2558443

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2751611

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2171291

Now what's harder to find is as many consecutive uoa's on Mobil1 xW-30 in a turbo Subie as gps has posted, instead of one or two random ones.

-Dennis
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:15 PM   #5
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Why bother when Rotella is readily available about anywhere?

Thats all I wonder... Mobile is known to suck for our cars, it might change with different lines they make, but why stress it when T5/6 is widely accepted?
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Aaron'z 2.5RS View Post
Why bother when Rotella is readily available about anywhere?

Thats all I wonder... Mobile is known to suck for our cars, it might change with different lines they make, but why stress it when T5/6 is widely accepted?
Because RT6 is quite arguably too thick for an N/A Subaru, RT5 is lousy in the cold, and because people love to use brand as a bad heuristic for quality, when in reality the type of oil is much more important than the brand.

I prefer information to wives tales. Mobil is not known to suck in "our" cars. Resource conserving GF-3 and GF-4 5w30 oils are known to suck in turbocharged Subaru applications. Since this forum serves owners of both turbo and N/A cars, I figured the information would be helpful. Especially since the EZ and FA/FB engines share a great many design elements.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #7
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Your engine also isn't turbocharged, which is particularly harsh on oil.
Try reading my post this time.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Aaron'z 2.5RS View Post
Why bother when Rotella is readily available about anywhere?
Different API specs, different builder approvals, different additive package (RT6 has less moly, much less calcium and much more magnesium), different builder approvals, and I basically prefer a light 40 weight. It's great for those that want an HDEO.

-Dennis
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

Because RT6 is quite arguably too thick for an N/A Subaru
My N/A Subaru would argue that T6 is arguably too thick for an N/A Subaru.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 12-18-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:07 AM   #10
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My N/A Subaru would argue that T6 is arguably too thick for an N/A Subaru.
Your car is talking to you, huh? I think maybe you should see someone about that.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:45 AM   #11
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Great to see that M1 is working for you. In general, I haven't seen any problems in N/A motors with any M1 products since the temps aren't there to shear it down as quickly. However, there have been some positive reports on the new 0w-30 and 0w-40 even in the turbo applications. Good to see that the oil is heading in the right direction.

I have access to many oils (great performance shop that stocks many different ones nearby), so I'm still going to be staying away from M1, but it's personal bias due to my last motor blowing on M1.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:55 AM   #12
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Your car is talking to you, huh? I think maybe you should see someone about that.
All cars talk to you, duh. That's why you see comments about a car loving a particular oil.

-Dennis
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:27 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Try reading my post this time.
I did. You don't have a turbocharger (Like my entire post said).

Eat me.




I don't care what you say about the car having a timing chain. It will not experience the amount of wear a turbocharger puts on oil. Period.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #14
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All cars talk to you, duh. That's why you see comments about a car loving a particular oil.

-Dennis
Damn. I knew I shouldn't have skipped those car whisperer classes.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:28 AM   #15
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I did. You don't have a turbocharger (Like my entire post said).

Eat me.

I don't care what you say about the car having a timing chain. It will not experience the amount of wear a turbocharger puts on oil. Period.
Eat you, huh, well that's very mature. And, no you apparently didn't read my post, because I specifically mention non-turbo Subarus and the thread title mentions the model specifically. Here, I'll help you out.
Quote:
Cliff's Notes:
Nothing to fear from Mobil 1 0w30 in a N/A Subaru, even the new ones with timing chains (which are supposedly harder on oil). Also, Pennzoil Platinum works well.
If you're too much of a newb to know that N/A = Naturally Aspirated, you shouldn't be posting snide remarks, especially to the OP of a thread who just shared $$$ worth of diligently gathered information with the community. I never said M1 0w30 was the best oil for a turbo Subaru, I went out of my way to say N/A.

I'm not the one who says timing chains are harder on oil, Subaru is, it's written in the owner's manual as the reason for doing the first oil change early. I also never said that a timing chain was as hard on oil as a turbocharger, in actual usage it may or may not be. The turbo itself is only one reason the turbo engines are harder on oil, pig rich running under boost is probably more important than the turbo itself. The turbo cars also run higher oil temperatures due to higher power output and the piston squirters. Higher oil temps are not necessarily harder on the oil, but they do make it thinner, pointing to the use of thicker oil.

Which is again why owners of N/A cars are ill served by following the default advice around here of "use RT6". RT6 is great for turbo cars, but is thicker than necessary for an N/A car and has relatively poor cold start performance.

Now, contribute something useful or get out of my thread.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #16
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Eat you, huh, well that's very mature. And, no you apparently didn't read my post, because I specifically mention non-turbo Subarus and the thread title mentions the model specifically. Here, I'll help you out.


If you're too much of a newb to know that N/A = Naturally Aspirated, you shouldn't be posting snide remarks, especially to the OP of a thread who just shared $$$ worth of diligently gathered information with the community. I never said M1 0w30 was the best oil for a turbo Subaru, I went out of my way to say N/A.

I'm not the one who says timing chains are harder on oil, Subaru is, it's written in the owner's manual as the reason for doing the first oil change early. I also never said that a timing chain was as hard on oil as a turbocharger, in actual usage it may or may not be. The turbo itself is only one reason the turbo engines are harder on oil, pig rich running under boost is probably more important than the turbo itself. The turbo cars also run higher oil temperatures due to higher power output and the piston squirters. Higher oil temps are not necessarily harder on the oil, but they do make it thinner, pointing to the use of thicker oil.

Which is again why owners of N/A cars are ill served by following the default advice around here of "use RT6". RT6 is great for turbo cars, but is thicker than necessary for an N/A car and has relatively poor cold start performance.

Now, contribute something useful or get out of my thread.
Jesus Christ

Your thread is trying to offer proof to M1 being good for the H6. We already know the M1 isn't bad in non-turbocharged engines. What you are saying is 'Hey, the sky is blue in the daytime". No ****, no one is contesting that. The hate for M1 comes from it's inability to survive in the turbocharged Subaru motors, which your car is not (I've been informed that N/A = Naturally Aspirated. Also, ice is cold).

I also never said timing chains are not harder on oil than belts. I just said they're not as hard on engines as a turbocharger is.


Now I understand how Uncle Scotty and Unabomber feel...
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
and has relatively poor cold start performance.
I didn't notice a difference between mobile 5w30 (conventional, not m1) and the T6 when I switched. Start-up was the same. Even at colder temps, like recently the mornings were down to below 30*, it took maybe a 1/2 second longer to crank over.

Not this oil change but my next one, I will get the T6 tested and see how it's been doing.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:34 AM   #18
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Duke, actually most people erroneously assume that Mobil1 as a brand is bad for all Subaru's. Someone did one random uoa here on an n/a Impreza and has declared that Mobil1 sucks in n/a Subaru's because it sheared to a 20 grade.

And in most oil threads on the BRZ and FR-S forums, many people are posting that they hear that Mobil1 is bad for boxers.

-Dennis
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:38 PM   #19
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I didn't notice a difference between mobile 5w30 (conventional, not m1) and the T6 when I switched. Start-up was the same. Even at colder temps, like recently the mornings were down to below 30*, it took maybe a 1/2 second longer to crank over.

Not this oil change but my next one, I will get the T6 tested and see how it's been doing.
That's because 30*F is not very cold. Try that 60* colder (-30*F).

I've used RT6 in my WRX through a MN winter, but the coldest I ever had to start it unaided was about 0*F. I've also used GC and Redline 0w30 in the winter, believe me, there's a substantial difference.

There are several phenomena which conspire to make starting much harder at cold temperatures. The battery looses it's ability to provide current, the oil gets thicker, requiring more power from the starter to spin the engine at a given RPM, and the fuel becomes harder to vaporize, meaning you need to spin the engine faster to generate the port velocity required for a viable combustion charge. Add it all up and the difference between 30*F and 0*F is a lot greater than the difference between 60*F and 30*F.

Here's what the relative viscosities of M1 oils and RT6 look like down to 32*F (0*C). RT6 is over 50% thicker at 32*F than M1 5w30.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:21 PM   #20
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Jesus Christ

Your thread is trying to offer proof to M1 being good for the H6. We already know the M1 isn't bad in non-turbocharged engines.
Oh we do, do we? Who is this we of which you speak? Take a look around this forum, ft86 club and Subaruforester.org and see all the ignorant posts about how M1 is bad but other brands of Resource Conserving 0w20 and 5w30 are good. There's a thread in this forum right now asking "who loves M1?" which speaks exactly to those ignorant assumptions about brand, this thread was in part a response to that one.

With the new FB engines becoming ever more common in the Impreza community, having good information about which oils perform in the new N/A timing chain boxers is a good thing.

Quote:
What you are saying is 'Hey, the sky is blue in the daytime". No ****, no one is contesting that. The hate for M1 comes from it's inability to survive in the turbocharged Subaru motors, which your car is not (I've been informed that N/A = Naturally Aspirated. Also, ice is cold).
The hate should be for the use of Resource Conserving oils of all brands in turbo EJ engines, particularly the GF-4 generation. The GF-5 formulation of M1 in particular is very different and as Dennis has pointed out, the limited data we have shows it works pretty well even in turbo EJs.

Again with your complete lack of reading comprehension, the Outback 3.6 discussed here is my Father's car, a quick read of my profile would reveal I drive a 2007 WRX, I'm well aware of the oil requirements of a turbo EJ. A quick search will turn up a 35k mi UOA history for my car. Where's your contribution?

Quote:
I also never said timing chains are not harder on oil than belts. I just said they're not as hard on engines as a turbocharger is.
And I presume you have some engineering data to back this up? Didn't think so.

As for turbo cars being much harder on oil than N/A cars. In general, I think that's true, but I think it's highly dependent on how the car is driven. Take a look at THIS thread with several UOAs using Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 in a turbo EJ. They're about the same vintage as PP in my Dad's OB 3.6. They certainly don't show that a WRX is much harder on oil than an OB 3.6, at least when driven primarily on the highway. I'm sure track use would be different.

Also note that M1 0w30 seems to hold up better in my dad's car than PP 5w30.

Quote:
Now I understand how Uncle Scotty and Unabomber feel...
Finally something we agree on, now get out of my thread!

Last edited by gpshumway; 12-19-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #21
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Thanks for posting these UOAs. Good info. Interesting that you do not see the usual M1 "iron spike".
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #22
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There's a thread in this forum right now asking "who loves M1?" which speaks exactly to those ignorant assumptions about brand, this thread was in part a response to that one.
The sad thing is that many ignorant assumptions will continue since more people will read a thread asking if anyone loves Mobil1 instead of a thread containing data. Adding that my engine didn't blow up using M1 was just to get more views. Otherwise, it would get only about 50 views.

I love the Widman viscosity graph. Sometimes we debate over 2-3 cst's at 100C when the viscosity in freezing temps and below have a much larger gap! As the graph shows, the first number in a multi-viscosity oil does not tell you the actual viscosity at a given temp and does not mean than a 0W-x is thinner than a 5W-x.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubLGT
Interesting that you do not see the usual M1 "iron spike".
His uoa sample was obviously tainted with a bit of virgin oil or some Pennzoil Ultra.

-Dennis
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:22 PM   #23
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Thanks for posting these UOAs. Good info. Interesting that you do not see the usual M1 "iron spike".
Yea, I was actually surprised myself when the first UOA on 0w30 came back. The second started a trend. We're going to try to keep that trend going.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:31 PM   #24
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The sad thing is that many ignorant assumptions will continue since more people will read a thread asking if anyone loves Mobil1 instead of a thread containing data. Adding that my engine didn't blow up using M1 was just to get more views. Otherwise, it would get only about 50 views.
Exactly why I put "M1 Good" in my thread title, though it was also total troll bait.

Quote:
I love the Widman viscosity graph. Sometimes we debate over 2-3 cst's at 100C when the viscosity in freezing temps and below have a much larger gap! As the graph shows, the first number in a multi-viscosity oil does not tell you the actual viscosity at a given temp and does not mean than a 0W-x is thinner than a 5W-x.

-Dennis
Yea, it really brings into focus just how robust engines are when dealing with different viscosity oils. Look what they have to contend with, and that graph only goes down to 0*C!

The other thing that graph should highlight for us is how much we should focus on temperature when selecting oil. All it takes is for your oil temp to stabilize 10*C lower for 30wt to turn into 40wt.

Doing track days at Firebird raceway (Phoenix)? You'd better have 5w40 syn, maybe with an oil cooler. Lots of highway cruising in a Minnesota winter? M1 0w30 will be fine. The BRZ may help a lot with this, someone on ft86club found out it has an oil temp probe available through OBDII. Hopefully we'll see more data logs of oil temp in different driving conditions soon.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:56 PM   #25
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That's because 30*F is not very cold. Try that 60* colder (-30*F).....
..... Add it all up and the difference between 30*F and 0*F is a lot greater than the difference between 60*F and 30*F.
A better temperature range would be 90* to 20*. That would account for 95% of my driving, and even at 20* the engine has only a slightly harder time on start-up than usual.

All I wanted to get across was that T6 can be used in an N/A subie. Of course if you live where it's really cold, like subzero frequently, T6 wouldn't be ideal to use.
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