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Old 12-20-2012, 08:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
And yet they sold EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM
There will always be someone with unlimited budget who will buy based on exquisite marketing and exclusivity.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:29 PM   #77
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Apparently at least 500 people in the world have "unlimited budgets".
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:47 PM   #78
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Apparently at least 500 people in the world have "unlimited budgets".
Does that actually surprise you?... I'm not saying Toyota shouldn't have produced the car, I'm just saying especially a big manufacturer like Toyota with a good marketing budget can surely attract the people I described to buy whatever they build if its at least good looking and limited.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:36 PM   #79
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The LFA doesn't do one thing better than any of it's competition (more or less expensive).
You really *love* this Randy Pobst guy, eh? He's the one that can't seem to drive the LFA (and says so). Besides Motor Trend, it wins a lot of things as I noted in pretty much every post in this thread which you've failed to read. More and Less expensive.

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Originally Posted by White out View Post
If it was priced at sub $200k, Lexus could still be making them AND turn a profit off the chassis.
Yeah, because they were making $175K+ on every car made? What are you smoking man? Seriously... that's good stuff. I'm sure they made a profit selling 500 alone and because it's an engineering exercise and Toyota's bread and butter is mass-produced cars, then maybe the point of this was to actually develop new tech for cheaper cars? I dunno, I'm just speculating - maybe they meant for it to be the next Corvette???
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:43 PM   #80
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You really *love* this Randy Pobst guy, eh? He's the one that can't seem to drive the LFA (and says so). Besides Motor Trend, it wins a lot of things as I noted in pretty much every post in this thread which you've failed to read. More and Less expensive.



Yeah, because they were making $175K+ on every car made? What are you smoking man? Seriously... that's good stuff. I'm sure they made a profit selling 500 alone.
On the LFA you can't really measure profit just looking at the LFA alone. There is no way they made a profit when you factor the development time. Lots of the research that went into this vehicle helped the racing program and will eventually find its way into the rest of the line. It's an investment in the future for Toyota.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:45 PM   #81
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On the LFA you can't really measure profit just looking at the LFA alone. There is no way they made a profit when you factor the development time. Lots of the research that went into this vehicle helped the racing program and will eventually find its way into the rest of the line. It's an investment in the future for Toyota.
Good points.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:15 AM   #82
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It's faster than a GTR around Nurburgring - what more do you want? A Viper with Pilot Cup Real tires and a Radical beat it. And if you're looking for performance per dollar you are most definitely not buying anything over $100K - the performance dollar above that level is not worth it. For this type of money, a stupid track time doesn't matter to you more than exclusivity. The people who buy 300k+ supercars, buy them to play with, not just because they won some magazine ego test.
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Lol, have you met most of those owners? It's ALL about ego.
Sure its about ego, but not what it does in a magazine. Its about status.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:43 AM   #83
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Does the McLaren have an equally equipped interior? Is it as DDable?
DDable? Probably more so with the dual clutch transmission and the fancy adjustable suspension.

Interior is a matter of taste, but honestly, I don't see much difference between the two. And it's not like the LFA interior is all that special.



Not that it's bad, but it's nothing ground-breaking for a $100+k sports car.


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Originally Posted by manticus View Post
You really *love* this Randy Pobst guy, eh? He's the one that can't seem to drive the LFA (and says so). Besides Motor Trend, it wins a lot of things as I noted in pretty much every post in this thread which you've failed to read. More and Less expensive.
The only impressive lap time is the one reported by Toyota (with the NRing package, which happens to be a $70k option).

In independent testing, the standard LFA has trouble keeping up with Mercedes SLS, Gallardos, GT-Rs and Z06s.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:50 AM   #84
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It was the ONLY near 300hp V6 when it came out and you're comparing it to hotted up econoboxes over two decades later? You really hate the NSX don't you? ****, the 911 had all of 250hp or something when the NSX came out.
did not the nsx have only about 270 at introduction? that's not a whole lot more than the archaic contemporary Porsche motor. I really like the nsx but feel it's performance is a bit overstated. the engineering and construction were a bit ahead it's time but the real novelty was that it was Japanese. It really wasn't much faster than a vanilla 911 and was slower than a contemporary turbo.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:09 AM   #85
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Well **** those guys!
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:57 AM   #86
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Does that actually surprise you?...
No, since that wasn't the point of my post. Finding 500 people with money to burn for an exotic is easy. I'm going to assume, though, that not all of the purchases were for immediate use by an individual.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:27 PM   #87
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Isn't there some kind ass backwards purchase scheme that Lexus has with these cars? IIRC, it was almost like a lease and if you ever wanted to sell it, Lexus had first right of refusal on it?
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:43 PM   #88
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Isn't there some kind ass backwards purchase scheme that Lexus has with these cars? IIRC, it was almost like a lease and if you ever wanted to sell it, Lexus had first right of refusal on it?
Yes, see below.

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Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
Sort of, but they don't "have to" go back to Toyota. They were sold as two-year, paid-in-full leases to prevent customers from re-selling them at a profit or getting rid of them early. You figure most buyers will probably buy them after the lease is up, then do whatever with them (keep it or sell it) rather than to just give it back.
Post #33.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:41 PM   #89
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You really *love* this Randy Pobst guy, eh? He's the one that can't seem to drive the LFA (and says so). Besides Motor Trend, it wins a lot of things as I noted in pretty much every post in this thread which you've failed to read. More and Less expensive.


Yeah, because they were making $175K+ on every car made? What are you smoking man? Seriously... that's good stuff. I'm sure they made a profit selling 500 alone and because it's an engineering exercise and Toyota's bread and butter is mass-produced cars, then maybe the point of this was to actually develop new tech for cheaper cars? I dunno, I'm just speculating - maybe they meant for it to be the next Corvette???
Who is Randy Pobst?

Where did I imply that they were making $175k per car?
Lexus stated that they would not make a profit on the car, hence the $400k price tag. Logically, if Lexus lowered the price and upped production, they would turn a profit on the LFA. Price it in the area of the SLS, R8GT, California, and Aston range. That is my point regarding pricing (well, and that the LFA produces about the same performance as vehicles at that price point).

Lexus makes Corvettes?


Here are some of the accolades of the LFA you posted:
Quote:
Top Gear had also hailed the LFA as the "greatest high-performance supercar ever from Japan."
So Japan's best supercar is slower than a two year old Viper around a track that it's named after. Good work Japan, good work.
. . . and nobody cares about which tires the car has. It should have the best tires available at that price-point.
Quote:
The magazine (Motor Trend) wrote, "In fact, the LFA hits 100 mph four-tenths faster than the GT-R -- and just keeps going. As both flash past the quarter-mile marker, the LFA never looks back".
So it's marginally faster than a car that's 1/4 of the price and has 4 seats.

Quote:
Edmunds' Insideline managed to acquire a LFA from Lexus for one week and tested the LFA against the Porsche GT2 RS on the track including an impromptu grudge match on the drag strip. Both cars won 2 races each making it a draw.
GT2 vs. a car with the same price tag as LFA:
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:32 AM   #90
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Lexus stated that they would not make a profit on the car, hence the $400k price tag. Logically, if Lexus lowered the price and upped production, they would turn a profit on the LFA. Price it in the area of the SLS, R8GT, California, and Aston range. That is my point regarding pricing (well, and that the LFA produces about the same performance as vehicles at that price point).
I think that even at the LFA's current price, Toyota wasn't really turning any profits. So if they'd have lowered the price, production would've had to have been upped significantly to turn profits. While stuff gets cheaper with higher production numbers, the LFA isn't quite an assembly line car, so the production run would've been pretty lengthy, as they'd likely not have wanted to sacrifice much quality for the sake of speeding up the assembly time. So that's quite unlikely.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:44 AM   #91
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White out, I get it that you are not a fan of the LFA for your reasons, but acceleration and lap times are only one very small metric to which cars are judged. Is the GTR fast, yes, is the LFA fast, yes, is the Viper Fast, yes, is the Lambo fast, yes. THey are all fast. A tenth or three either way does not make a hill of beans, as none of the cars will ever be tracked in a competition where tenths matter. What matters is the experience of driving a car.

A classic 100k+ dollar Jaguar E type will get positively destroyed by even the most humble cars today, but that does not mean it is not a wonderful car that provides a sensational driving experience.

I would gather the LFA is breathtaking to drive. Its tactile feelings and its aural note will make it unique among any other car out there. Yes there are faster super cars for less money, but NOTHING on this planet outside of an F1 car sounds like an LFA. And that is worth something to somebody.

I would not care if the GTR was faster. I certainly do not care if the Viper is faster. Comparing the viper to the LFA is like comparing a neanderthal with a club to a Olympic Fencer. In a fight the neanderthal will certainly prevail, but I know which I would rather be on a daily basis.

The LFA will hold its value for ever. Much like the McLaren. As there is nothing on the planet that is street legal that can offer what it offers.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:49 AM   #92
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GT2 vs. a car with the same price tag as LFA:
Lamborghini Aventador vs 911 GT2 RS vs Mercedes SLS - YouTube
All those cars are slower than the Viper ACR, mind as well everyone just buy a Viper.

The LFA is a great piece of engineering. No need to talk down on it or Asian manufacturers.
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:31 PM   #93
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In regards to the interior of the LFA. Here is a good example of a supercar interior:


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
White out, I get it that you are not a fan of the LFA for your reasons, but acceleration and lap times are only one very small metric to which cars are judged. Is the GTR fast, yes, is the LFA fast, yes, is the Viper Fast, yes, is the Lambo fast, yes. THey are all fast. A tenth or three either way does not make a hill of beans, as none of the cars will ever be tracked in a competition where tenths matter. What matters is the experience of driving a car.

A classic 100k+ dollar Jaguar E type will get positively destroyed by even the most humble cars today, but that does not mean it is not a wonderful car that provides a sensational driving experience.

I would gather the LFA is breathtaking to drive. Its tactile feelings and its aural note will make it unique among any other car out there. Yes there are faster super cars for less money, but NOTHING on this planet outside of an F1 car sounds like an LFA. And that is worth something to somebody.

I would not care if the GTR was faster. I certainly do not care if the Viper is faster. Comparing the viper to the LFA is like comparing a neanderthal with a club to a Olympic Fencer. In a fight the neanderthal will certainly prevail, but I know which I would rather be on a daily basis.

The LFA will hold its value for ever. Much like the McLaren. As there is nothing on the planet that is street legal that can offer what it offers.
My point; Lexus has marketed the crap out of the LFA being a supercar. But in reality, it isn't. It's not even close. It has the looks of a modern Japanese coupe; zero image; zero soul. I've owned two different $100k+ vehicles that are made by companies that sell low-priced cars. Taking the car in for service is a nightmare (Clakrson had the same feelings with his FGT). Performance wise, the LFA compares to some great GT cars. When that happend LFA came out with a "race" version for another $100k, which lost to a "race" version of a car that took the exact same layout with low tech and was faster. This is a performance car with a lot of hyped up marketing.

I used Viper as a base since it beat the race-LFA at a track the LFA was named after. The Z06 is currently having its way with the GenIV and GenV Viper, so a Corvette has the ability to out-run the LFA. Way to set the bar high Lexus.

I would much rather drive a '67 E-Type than an LFA. It has looks, soul, and you would reek of fuel/exhaust upon arrival at the destination. Nobody would question your automotive choice (or fragrance). Where as in the Lexus, you would have to explain why it's a cool car and that yes, it is a $400k Lexus. A supercar needs no explanation.

As far as sound... seriously, go listen to a CGT in real life. Blows away the Lexus (or anything short of F1 for that matter). But above all, the marketing firm hired by Lexus did an outstanding job of forever engraining in our minds, the LFA's ability to do this:


The last time I saw an LFA


Lexus claimed that they pushed the envelope with the LFA. In comparison to other cars available, they mistook the strength of the envelope.


ps. I have nothing against Japanese auto manufacturers
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:15 PM   #94
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Lexus claimed that they pushed the envelope with the LFA. In comparison to other cars available, they mistook the strength of the envelope.
No, you're apparently to ignorant to recognize what "envelope" they were referring to.

You're a broken record. If you dislike the LFA because of its performance compared to much cheap cars, that's AOK, but there's a long list of other cars you should also dislike.

Honestly, I'm wondering the source of your money to go out and buy your toys, with logic like "they should have just priced it hundreds of thousands less, then it would have sold more". Once again, you completely ignoring construction costs of a car of this type, and compare it to those MUCH MUCH cheaper to make.

I'm sure the CGT should have been sold at half the price as well, and the SLR too. What idiots they were for not knocking $$$,$$$ off the sticker price to sell more cars.

They didn't build the car you would have liked to see from them, we get it thanks.

Last edited by REX8; 12-24-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:16 PM   #95
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No one is arguing that carbon-heavy construction is "worth it". The reason you don't see more of it is because, in general, it's not worth it.

Point was, I think, that you can't call it overly expensive, unless you compare apples to apples. McLaren's attempted at similar construction yielded a $500,000 SLR. Porsche's? Almost the same.

As it's been said...hardly any halo exotic is worth the $$$ from a performance/$$$ standpoint. So if you're going to bitch about the LFA in that regard, then the line forms to the right. Behind some other cars that no one seems to complain about for some reason.
OMG, someone with half a brain...
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #96
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In regards to the interior of the LFA. Here is a good example of a supercar interior:




A 1997 Honda Civic that has been enhanced by a 19 year old with a credit card is your example of a good interior?
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:27 PM   #97
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A 1997 Honda Civic that has been enhanced by a 19 year old with a credit card is your example of a good interior?
Pagani is well know for their horrible interiors.

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No, you're apparently to ignorant to recognize what "envelope" they were referring to.

You're a broken record. If you dislike the LFA because of its performance compared to much cheap cars, that's AOK, but there's a long list of other cars you should also dislike.

Honestly, I'm wondering the source of your money to go out and buy your toys, with logic like "they should have just priced it hundreds of thousands less, then it would have sold more". Once again, you completely ignoring construction costs of a car of this type, and compare it to those MUCH MUCH cheaper to make.

I'm sure the CGT should have been sold at half the price as well, and the SLR too. What idiots they were for not knocking $$$,$$$ off the sticker price to sell more cars.

They didn't build the car you would have liked to see from them, we get it thanks.
Would you think that a civic would be a better car if production was lowered and the price tag went up 30-50%?

SLR and CGT were bargains compared to the Enzo/Zonda/CCX.

The SLR's engine takes to mods so well. It really is an outstanding GT car with some soul (door function, exhaust exit) and faster than the LFA through the 1/4 (along with trap speed). . . From a car that came out in 2005, with an automatic transmission.

Did Porsche come outright and state that they lost money on the CGT?

I choose to compare the LFA to Viper because it is the only other 2 door, front engine, V10 car produced in the past 10 years. Lexus has this magnificent chassis where Viper has boxed tubular steel (the cheapest crap possible). Lexus names their best version of the car after a racetrack it sets a lap record at. Days later, Viper comes by and sets a better time. Like I said, Viper is currently getting beaten with a stick by the Z06 and the GenV thus far isn't stacking up to the expectations. Which further drops the LFA's credibility. The LFA has performance figures of a $400k car from 5 years ago.

Lexus made this outstanding carbon shell supercar that can't perform as well as a Viper; an interior that is... meh; styling that fits the Scion line; a road presence that is non-existent; and a price tag that matches. . . better cars. But Lexus ran a hell of a marketing campaign. You're right, the LFA is the best car ever. Bargain of the century, and instead of taking it out for drives, owners can break glasses in their garages.

As far as my logic in cars, I own a Murcielago that hits 102db at start up and is missing half the driveline. My reasonable car is a 996 powered by an LS1. In the past year I've daily driven an E36M3 and BMW 2002. And, I would take a '91 NSX over an LFA. Please try and figure out my logic in cars.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:07 AM   #98
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I just want to cry foul on the knock against the Pagani interior. I would argue that it may be a tad on the garish side, but the quality is beyond reproach and I would further the statement by saying the interior is one of the things that made Pagani what it is today. It certainly was not performance. All supercars are fast... blah blah 600 HP, blah blah 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. A dozen cars match that spec already. Any Joe Blo can drop a supercharged LSX into a light car and get those specs (cough cough Hennesy). Displacement plus FI = mad speed. Been that way since the 1950's. Bored of it.

A new supercar tries to break into the market and make waves every month it seems. Uber cars appear from Spain, Czech., Ukraine, etc. They all try to wow us, but the problem is that you cannot wow anybody with numbers alone. It is just too easy to get into the 500+ HP realm. A 20 year old with a Small Block Chevy can build one outside of his trailer in Louisiana (ask me how I know )

So what is a supercar producer suppose to do to make an impression on a market saturated with wannabe ferraris?

The equation that Pagani discovered in my mind was largely influenced by that interior. It is like nothing else. Radical, but of high quality. Comparing to a civic is not right. THis is what Civics try to emulate. But miserably fail. It is well known that the exterior of supercars are bonkers. It is a requirement of sorts. But Pagani took the very high road and made the interior bonkers as well, and it made them into a well respected super car.

What I am getting at, but taking my sweet time getting to the point is that the LFA has checked all the boxes. It is wicked to look at on the outside, it is VERY nice on the inside, it is immensely fast, it makes a noise like no other car out there. It has aspects that make it unique, and that alone makes it worthy of at least an exotic title, if not super car.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:20 AM   #99
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Who is Randy Pobst?

Where did I imply that they were making $175k per car?
Lexus stated that they would not make a profit on the car, hence the $400k price tag. Logically, if Lexus lowered the price and upped production, they would turn a profit on the LFA. Price it in the area of the SLS, R8GT, California, and Aston range. That is my point regarding pricing (well, and that the LFA produces about the same performance as vehicles at that price point).
Randy is the guy driving in all of the reviews you posted from MT - you keep posting one source for your examples.

Your argument about pricing is actually... Stupid. Your disdain about the LFA's price could be applied to the SLR and a myriad of cars over 100k because they all don't turn better lap times than an old Viper. But Scrappy put it best - not everyone wants to be a neanderthal with a club.

Quote:
Lexus makes Corvettes?
Metaphor lost on you.



Quote:
Here are some of the accolades of the LFA you posted:

So Japan's best supercar is slower than a two year old Viper around a track that it's named after. Good work Japan, good work.
. . . and nobody cares about which tires the car has. It should have the best tires available at that price-point.

So it's marginally faster than a car that's 1/4 of the price and has 4 seats.
Again, obsessed with lap times. Let me ask - how many track days per year did you attend per year with your Lamborghini and Viper? How many times have you run the Ring with your personal car? What SCCA class do you run your Lamborghini in?

If lap times are your primary concern, then I imagine that might be the disconnect - you are obviously a frequent trackrat that spends their time racing these cars in competition so every second around the track is important and very consequential. The rest of us aren't tracking Lambos and Vipers - we're coming from the perspective of owning a high-quality sports car and enjoying the feel, the sound, and the drive - not just a YouTube laptime.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:32 AM   #100
REX8
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Originally Posted by White out View Post
You're right, the LFA is the best car ever. Bargain of the century, and instead of taking it out for drives, owners can break glasses in their garages.
Best car ever? I don't even like it. You're too dense to understand the points being made.

Porsche didn't lose money on the CGT, it was SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the LFA, however.

Once again, no one is saying they don't understand the low performance/high price problem. No one is saying the LFA is their favorite car. However, not all people blatantly ignore what the car actual is, and why it's at least some in some aspects improvement compared to cars of ITS TYPE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post

As far as my logic in cars, I own a Murcielago that hits 102db at start up and is missing half the driveline. My reasonable car is a 996 powered by an LS1. In the past year I've daily driven an E36M3 and BMW 2002. And, I would take a '91 NSX over an LFA. Please try and figure out my logic in cars.
I like your logic in cars. That's not the logic I was talking about. I was talking about your "just lower the price a couple hundred grand" logic. Which is completely asinine. To the point where I begin to wonder who pays you so much.
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