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Old 12-28-2012, 12:29 PM   #226
SCRAPPYDO
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actually two points I want to make

The first is you have to be doing something rather extreme to get the stability control to even activate it. I went playing on wet roads late last night and it did not kick in at all, so for a Daily Driver, people are making WAAAAY too much out of not being able to defeat the stability control on US spec Golf R's.

The second is if you have a 30 minutes and a VAG COM cable, you can change 4 little numbers on your ECU and get the full functionality of the of the 2 mode ESC the rest of the world gets in THIER Golf R's. Meaning...

Press it once and you enter sport mode to allow more slip
Press it and hold it and you disable the ESC completely

I do not know why VW did not give us this from the factory, but modifying the US spec Golf R to make it exactly like the rest of the world's Golf R's can be done in the time it takes you to drink a cup of coffee.

NO biggie.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:35 PM   #227
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You yourself said that your Golf R is a "track toy."

My car in daily driving feels like a super capable machine.

But when I take it to the track and REALLY drive it, the shortcomings become apparent.

I think it is ridiculous that I would need to start fiddling with the ECU on a brand new car that is "supposed" to be the hot model... .
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:07 PM   #228
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The non-defeat ESC in my slow VW still makes for frowns. Slow-mo fake rallying on snow covered surfaces is impossible. Or at least unpleasant. Thankfully I can turn the TC off and get out of my parking spot at the end of the day, unlike my buddy in his '11 Jetta 2.5.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:07 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
It is a great car...
It is like the MS3 only with a good interior and defeatable nannies..

Great feedback, thanks for sharing. I have a couple of questions, and am not sure if you can answer them.
  • The MS3's power was limited in the 1st and 2nd gear due to traction challenges. There are no such limitations on the ST if the TC/ESC is disabled, correct?
  • I understand that there is some form of torque vectoring in play with the ST. There is no electronic diff correct? Is the torque vectoring associated with the brakes only? If the 'nannies' are defeated does the torque vectoring go away also?
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:07 PM   #230
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Well, since I do not race for money, I really do not care. I will probably NOT mess with mine. If that costs me a second or two who cares. The point of track days is to have fun and learn to drive the car. Stability control or not makes no difference. If it comes on when I take it to the track, who cares. Most Golf R owners have found out that the ESC light only kicks in if you drive like a hamfisted fool. If you drive smooth, you will never see it. So again, the golf is a Daily driver first and track toy a distant second.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:16 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyboy View Post
You yourself said that your Golf R is a "track toy."

My car in daily driving feels like a super capable machine.

But when I take it to the track and REALLY drive it, the shortcomings become apparent.

I think it is ridiculous that I would need to start fiddling with the ECU on a brand new car that is "supposed" to be the hot model... .
Not any more rediculous than having to put new brakes and fluid on a new WRX for when you really push it on a track for more than 15 minutes.

I wager if I wanted to flash my cars ESC (which I do not) I could do it much faster than you could change fluid and pads...

The big differernce here is the ESC on the Golf R will let you drive on a track all day, the brakes on a WRX will die after a short stint.

Again, my Golf R is a daily driver, and I have yet to see the stability control come on in its daily driving duties.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:18 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTD View Post
Great feedback, thanks for sharing. I have a couple of questions, and am not sure if you can answer them.
  • The MS3's power was limited in the 1st and 2nd gear due to traction challenges. There are no such limitations on the ST if the TC/ESC is disabled, correct?
  • I understand that there is some form of torque vectoring in play with the ST. There is no electronic diff correct? Is the torque vectoring associated with the brakes only? If the 'nannies' are defeated does the torque vectoring go away also?
My research on the Focus showed no limiting of power in any gear that I recall. Does not mean it does not, but all 30 articles and reviews I read did not mention it.

On the second point, I can tell you for certain, with TC/ESC off, the brake vectoring is still working all the time to help you out. But you can roast tires around every tight corner if you like.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:43 PM   #233
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New C&D came in...

The ST got shellacked by the BRZ around VIR.



Invisi troll!
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:23 PM   #234
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That actually surprises me quite a bit.
Was the BRZ using factory tires?
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:56 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
New C&D came in...

The ST got shellacked by the BRZ around VIR.



Invisi troll!
This is highly amusing to me.

BRZ ST needs more power!!!!!
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:59 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
New C&D came in...

The ST got shellacked by the BRZ around VIR.



Invisi troll!
Can you list the times for both vehicles?
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:09 PM   #237
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Focus ST 3:21.4
BRZ 3.18.6
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:19 PM   #238
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I'm shocked a rwd that weighs 500lbs less was quicker than a fwd on a road course!

Good for the BRZ, that's about all it has going for it.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:20 PM   #239
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Yea I caught this earlier today on bimmerpost, pretty unimpressive for the ST, what the heck? And Camaro, holy

Quote:
Full List by Times
Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
* BMW M3 (E92) - 3.05.4 (from last year's competition, for reference)
* BMW 1M Coupe - 3:06.6 (from last year's competition, for reference)
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:21 PM   #240
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I bet both were fun as hell.

And in the end, isn't that what really matters.

What do the BRZ guys think that a charger was quicker..

HAAH, I hate that darn car, and if all you care about is the lap times, then you should all sell your BRZ's and ST's and buy Chargers..

When will lap times stop being held as the most important metric
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:29 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I bet both were fun as hell.

And in the end, isn't that what really matters.

What do the BRZ guys think that a charger was quicker..

HAAH, I hate that darn car, and if all you care about is the lap times, then you should all sell your BRZ's and ST's and buy Chargers..

When will lap times stop being held as the most important metric
I don't care about lap times; I drive a Prius, mother ****er.



I do hope to get a BRZ/FR-S soon, though, as my weekend car.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:31 PM   #242
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I don't know what's worse- beating a Focus ST by only 2.8 seconds, or knowing that a potential police cruiser is capable of finishing ahead of my sports coupe around VIR.

Disclaimer: I love the BRZ and know its tires suck.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:34 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Evil STI View Post
I don't know what's worse- beating a Focus ST by only 2.8 seconds, or knowing that a potential police cruiser is capable of finishing ahead of my sports coupe around VIR.

Disclaimer: I love the BRZ and know its tires suck.
V8s, how do they work?
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:35 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil STI
I don't know what's worse- beating a Focus ST by only 2.8 seconds, or knowing that a potential police cruiser is capable of finishing ahead of my sports coupe around VIR.
No kidding! I drive a charger for a living and let me tell you, I hate that car! I bet the charger had better tires too.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:11 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
What do the BRZ guys think that a charger was quicker..

HAAH, I hate that darn car, and if all you care about is the lap times, then you should all sell your BRZ's and ST's and buy Chargers..
Some men just want to watch the world burn...
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:03 AM   #246
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458...sexiest car alive!
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:19 AM   #247
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458...sexiest car alive!
Cars still aren't alive, sweetheart.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:50 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
This is highly amusing to me.

BRZ ST needs more power!!!!!
Wait, you mean a purpose built sports car is faster than a hot rodded econobox around a racetrack?

Mind blowing.

And yeah, getting beat by a Charger, V8 or not, around a racetrack? (Snicker) I guess I could use the same logic to discount the BRZs superiority over the ST, since the BRZ is faster than the ST in a straight line too, but I won't. At any rate, if you're choosing one of these cars based on lap time, you're missing the point.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post

Wait, you mean a purpose built sports car is faster than a hot rodded econobox around a racetrack?

Mind blowing.

And yeah, getting beat by a Charger, V8 or not, around a racetrack? (Snicker) I guess I could use the same logic to discount the BRZs superiority over the ST, since the BRZ is faster than the ST in a straight line too, but I won't. At any rate, if you're choosing one of these cars based on lap time, you're missing the point.
I just find it highly amusing because those that rant about the BRZ not having enough power are likely not complaining about the ST's power output. It just highlights that for most car enthusiasts planting your foot on the go pedal is what makes a car fun.

I don't buy cars on track times. My MINI S is unlikely to come close to any of these cars on a track but it is still a blast to drive and it makes me smile. Yup, a portly V8 charger will ape rape my MINI around any given track except for the tightest of auto-x courses, but I'd chose my MINI every single day.

I also find these lap times amusing because the ST is OT's latest hotness. OT keeps telling me that the BRZ is just an underpowered, not-that-light, smaller, RWD Impreza.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:28 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
I just find it highly amusing because those that rant about the BRZ not having enough power are likely not complaining about the ST's power output. It just highlights that for most car enthusiasts planting your foot on the go pedal is what makes a car fun.

I don't buy cars on track times. My MINI S is unlikely to come close to any of these cars on a track but it is still a blast to drive and it makes me smile. Yup, a portly V8 charger will ape rape my MINI around any given track except for the tightest of auto-x courses, but I'd chose my MINI every single day.

I also find these lap times amusing because the ST is OT's latest hotness. OT keeps telling me that the BRZ is just an underpowered, not-that-light, smaller, RWD Impreza.
I think OT likes the ST because we're aging, reproducing and need something more practical than a tiny two door coupe. If I were 19 again, sure, I'd be all over a BRZ. Now, I value practicality, for as little as my car has, and what I have currently is as impractical as I'm willing to go. If owning an ST were a significant financial savings over what I have now, I'd be all over it. But I don't owe much on the 'stang so it makes sense to keep it as long as I remain childless.
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