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Old 12-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #26
REX8
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Originally Posted by roadtrip1098 View Post
List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, the STi beat out the E92 M3 by 7 seconds on Nurburgring. Note though that the early e46 M3 CSL has a time 5 seconds faster than the STi, with the super rare M3 GTS a couple seconds faster than that.

Keep in mind the STi used was a JDM 2.0 with a larger turbo designed for 320 HP. Whitch is chicken scratch in terms of power gains. Any typical STi can see that type of bump through tuning alone. Add a Stage II type of kit (which will cost about what the first service inspection runs on the M3) and a couple cool stickers and you can spank an M3.

Having owned an E46 M3 I will say this though, the car is extremely quick and flickable. Between the SMGII, the suspension setup, and the power delivery, it is really easy to drive quickly. The STi on the other hand requires a slightly lighter touch, you almost have to let the car wander (sometimes) and it feels a bit looser. Once you're used to the bit of understeer and navigating the transmission so you stay in boost , and sort the DCCD, the STi is just as fun to drive, way cheaper to maintain, and for all intents and purposes, on the same performance level.
No, that STI was a purpose built car, with a full undertray, larer trubo (making much more than 320), suspension, etc. It's been covered a thousand times.

Car and Driver Lighting Lap:

E90 M3: 3:05
2011 USDM STI: 3:13.8

That's a killing...not even in the same ballpark. The STi is gonna need a good bit work to keep up on an average road course. You have to think, stock for stock, the STI is even a hair slower than the older M3 on a road course (although their overall performance is similar, in general). Add 80 HP for the E90/92, and yeah...it's a walk. A simple stage II upgrade is not going to get it done on the top end. Especially considering the STIs aero, and loss of power via AWD.


Anyway, to the OP:

The STI is relatively cheap/easy to mod. You can certainly throw money at it to keep up with a stock M3 LR edition. The question is, why are you doing this in the first place? And how much are you going to like the STI when you're done? You're young, so you'll probably be fine with the harsh ride, turbo lag, and econobox interior.

But here's a thought...

Buy a BMW with an N54 (135 or 335). They're getting cheap now...and you'll have the ability to add power on par with his M3 MUCH more cheaply. Plus, you will have the other niceties that go with the car.
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Last edited by REX8; 12-29-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:00 AM   #27
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ehhhhhhhhhhhh

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Old 12-29-2012, 10:32 AM   #28
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The limerock edition M3 is so damn cool. Post pics.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:50 AM   #29
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Mine
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by 11wrx_dude View Post
Mine
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Yeah, no. The M3 is trapping 114.

Your stock turbo WRX isn't even close once rolling. Hell, a protuned STi is only trapping what, 107-109?

Last edited by REX8; 12-29-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:07 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8

No, that STI was a purpose built car, with a full undertray, larer trubo (making much more than 320), suspension, etc. It's been covered a thousand times.

Car and Driver Lighting Lap:

E90 M3: 3:05
2011 USDM STI: 3:13.8

That's a killing...not even in the same ballpark. The STi is gonna need a good bit work to keep up on an average road course. You have to think, stock for stock, the STI is even a hair slower than the older M3 on a road course (although their overall performance is similar, in general). Add 80 HP for the E90/92, and yeah...it's a walk. A simple stage II upgrade is not going to get it done on the top end. Especially considering the STIs aero, and loss of power via AWD.

Anyway, to the OP:

The STI is relatively cheap/easy to mod. You can certainly throw money at it to keep up with a stock M3 LR edition. The question is, why are you doing this in the first place? And how much are you going to like the STI when you're done? You're young, so you'll probably be fine with the harsh ride, turbo lag, and econobox interior.

But here's a thought...

Buy a BMW with an N54 (135 or 335). They're getting cheap now...and you'll have the ability to add power on par with his M3 MUCH more cheaply. Plus, you will have the other niceties that go with the car.
I think you are severely overestimating how good the m3 is compared to the sti. Insideline ran a 2012 m3 in the 1/4 mile at a 12.8 @ 111.2. They found a 0.90g skid pad, which the sti beats stock. If you look at the stage 2 sti registry on these forums a lot have hit 111 trap speeds at stage 2.

Also in regards to your previous post the newer WRXs have equal WHP to the sti. His car would indeed likely trap faster than an m3. Hell most stage 2 trap 111, then you add an intercooler and ebcs?
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:12 PM   #32
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Also in regards to your previous post the newer WRXs have equal WHP to the sti.
Not tuned they don't. Their turbo maxes out before the STis. Moreover, no, they don't have quite the same whp stock to stock. They have a similar power/weight, so the WRX is just about as fast. But it's still down some power. This is 4 year old news, and common knowledge. A protuned STi is going to make more power than a protuned WRX on respective stock snails.

Car and Driver's last M3 was trapping 114. That guy's protuned WRX is not trapping that.

To your other point, the STi is very tuneable. Did I not say you could match the M3 with $$$?

I said a "stage II" STI wasn't enough power. It isn't. At least as far as acceleration after the start is concerned.

Show me a "stage II" STi trapping 114. Exhaust and reflash. Not even close. It's going to get walked as the speeds rise. You'll likely need at least a small turbo upgrade.

Last edited by REX8; 12-29-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8

Not tuned they don't. Their turbo maxes out before the STis.

Car and Driver's last M3 was trapping 114. That guy's protuned WRX is not trapping that.

I already said you can tune an STi to match the M3.

My comparison was stock to stock. Your comparison was a protuned sti to the slowest m3 time you could find.

I'm not over stating anything. Stock to stock, the M3 is a much faster car.

The STi is very tuneable. Did I not say you could match it with $$$?

Did you not read my post?
That is far beyond stage 2 where you will find any difference between the wrx and sti turbos. Also I bet his pro tuned wrx with intercooler and ebcs IS trapping 114 when you consider a down pipe + protune will get you 111 on 93 octane.

Also OP was asking if a modified Subaru would beat an m3, did you not read?

Also, they have EXACTLY THE SAME WHP. You should spend some time on cobbs dyno database. WRX is actually faster in the 1/4 mile because of equal whp but lighter weight.

Last edited by mrkyle3; 12-29-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #34
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I think you are severely overestimating how good the m3 is compared to the sti. Insideline ran a 2012 m3 in the 1/4 mile at a 12.8 @ 111.2. They found a 0.90g skid pad, which the sti beats stock. If you look at the stage 2 sti registry on these forums a lot have hit 111 trap speeds at stage 2.

Also in regards to your previous post the newer WRXs have equal WHP to the sti. His car would indeed likely trap faster than an m3. Hell most stage 2 trap 111, then you add an intercooler and ebcs?
And an EL header with up pipe. Not mentioned in the mod list.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:20 PM   #35
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As someone else said, the N54 in the 135 and 335 is a great motor. After an intake, downpipes exhaust and a tune you are at about 360 whp and easily over 400 with e85. Plus you dont need to rebuild them until much higher power levels unlike like the ej's
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:23 PM   #36
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I've seen lots of STIs beat various assortments of BMWs on gravel course rally races. So there ya go.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mrkyle3 View Post
Also I bet his pro tuned wrx with intercooler and ebcs IS trapping 114 .
Show me one with similar mods trapping that high. Should be a simple thing for you to do if it's true.

And you think stage II power adders are going to eliminate the 8 second gap around VIR?

Last edited by REX8; 12-29-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by 10splaya22 View Post
As someone else said, the N54 in the 135 and 335 is a great motor. After an intake, downpipes exhaust and a tune you are at about 360 whp and easily over 400 with e85. Plus you dont need to rebuild them until much higher power levels unlike like the ej's
Depending on what his age/priorities are...with the resale of STi's so high, and 135's so cheap...it's hard to resist.

The fuel pump issue is sorted from what I can tell, and WRXs/STIs are still popping motors.

I'll take the ugly 1er with the monster motor, I think. Try to show his dad he bought the wrong BMW.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #39
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I think you guys are putting the M3 on a pretty high pedestal. If a new Mustang GT can run with an M3 around a track I'm sure a modded STi is well capable beating an M3.

M3's put down 350-360 WHP & weight about 3700 lbs.

Stage 2 Sti's on e85 put down around around 330-340+ & weight about 3400 lbs.

Add some simple suspension mods and you'll be whopping up on some M3's fairly easy.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #40
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on an autocross course... i'd take my wrx over an m3 all day errr day

****, i'd take my miata over both
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #41
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on an autocross course... i'd take my wrx over an m3 all day errr day

****, i'd take my miata over both
I would too.

On a road course though, I'm thinking Miata>M3>WRX. The steady-state under steer is a fun-ruiner.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #42
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I think you guys are putting the M3 on a pretty high pedestal. If a new Mustang GT can run with an M3 around a track I'm sure a modded STi is well capable beating an M3.
Not sure what that means, that Mustang is a beast of a car from a performance/$$$ standpoint. And I don't think anyone is giving off the "M3 is god" vibe. Or at least I didn't intend to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave07 View Post

M3's put down 350-360 WHP & weight about 3700 lbs.

Stage 2 Sti's on e85 put down around around 330-340+ & weight about 3400 lbs.

Add some simple suspension mods and you'll be whopping up on some M3's fairly easy.
Similar power to weight, and some suspension would get you THERE. Not "whopping". I don't think anyone ever said it takes $texas to match a stock M3. But some people are quoting 1/4 mile times, and thinking that's all that matters. The 8 seconds at VIR isn't simply down to power. It's also about gearing, aero, balance, etc.

Even on the power front...it takes a lot to keep up with an M3 from say, 80 to 140. Much more than an equal power/weight ratio.

Anyway, I think we all agree you can get there without much trouble (to what specific extent you need to mod aside)...

Then again, at that point, he's still driving a stock M3, and you're in a heavily boosted, Subaru on coilovers. As a Suby lover, I still know what car I'd rather be in.



Unrelated note: What would it take to get a 135i/335i there?

JB4+ DPs ($1000)
Springs and Konis ($1000)
LSD ($1500)

Might even be fast enough to outrun the ugly!

Last edited by REX8; 12-29-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:49 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8

Not sure what that means, that Mustang is a beast of a car from a performance/$$$ standpoint. And I don't think anyone is giving off the "M3 is god" vibe. Or at least I didn't intend to.

Similar power to weight, and some suspension would get you THERE. Not "whopping". I don't think anyone ever said it takes $texas to match a stock M3. But some people are quoting 1/4 mile times, and thinking that's all that matters. The 8 seconds at VIR isn't simply down to power. It's also about gearing, aero, balance, etc.

Even on the power front...it takes a lot to keep up with an M3 from say, 80 to 140. Much more than an equal power/weight ratio.

Anyway, I think we all agree you can get there without much trouble (to what specific extent you need to mod aside)...

Then again, at that point, he's still driving a stock M3, and you're in a heavily boosted, Subaru on coilovers. As a Suby lover, I still know what car I'd rather be in.

Unrelated note: What would it take to get a 135i/335i there?

JB4+ DPs ($1000)
Springs and Konis ($1000)
LSD ($1500)

Might even be fast enough to outrun the ugly!
1/4 mile times are a good comparison for cars but I never said that's all that matters. I also looked at skidpad and then said that those numbers don't necessarily translate to track performance.

Last edited by mrkyle3; 12-29-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:57 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post

Unrelated note: What would it take to get a 135i/335i there?

JB4+ DPs ($1000)
Springs and Konis ($1000)
LSD ($1500)

Might even be fast enough to outrun the ugly!
Sounds about right. That's 400 HP easy. Figure $25k for a nice 135. A couple grand in mods. Maybe hold off on the LSD if you're not tracking. 245 square setup would do a lot of good too.

Compelling case against the STI in fairer weather places. Or if you have a beater.

Plus, he could bond with his father via Bluetooth ear-piece on the way to the car wash.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #45
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dude.. that m3 video is HILARIOUS !! just look at the way the deutch is holding the steering wheel... mad skilzzzzz bro!
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:11 PM   #46
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Oh, and if the roads are wet, the Subaru will eat an M3. There is no amount of tire an M3 wont leave on a wet road. Seriously though, M3 in the wet make you look like a drifting champion even though everything you do will be in slow mo.
Race when it's raining out much, do ya?
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:36 PM   #47
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^agreed, there ARE tires that won't even flinch at rain, and i'm not even necessarily talking about hoosier wets

BUT, given the same set of tires, AWD has the mechanical advantage and will win out. your mustnotstang/m3 will spin out before an sti will.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:03 PM   #48
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^agreed, there ARE tires that won't even flinch at rain, and i'm not even necessarily talking about hoosier wets

BUT, given the same set of tires, AWD has the mechanical advantage and will win out. your mustnotstang/m3 will spin out before an sti will.
That's great. I don't drive like an asshat when it rains out.

It never fails. Every time we start comparing the almighty Wrx/STI to xyz car, some fanboy busts out the, "Yeah, your car might be faster, but lets race in the rain, snow, coming apocolypse and then see what happens!"

Then again, you wonder why so many of you idiots smash these things up when it's slick it out despite having AWD. It's because you really do think having AWD gives you license to do grossly retarded things out on the road.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:25 PM   #49
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So is it possible for any kind of Subaru out there to outperform a BMW M3? Mainly in terms of acceleration and handling turns
It's certainly possible, maybe not practical. But if I were to take the cheapest, most painless route possible to beating a late model M3 in most performance measures, it would look something like this...

As far as pure acceleration:
Buy a used, 2.5L STi that's bone stock (don't want to inherit anyone's headaches).
Buy a catless downpipe ($290), used catback exhaust ($400) bigger fuel pump ($85) and injectors ($500).
Get it protuned to run on e85 (~$400).

One the power is taken care of, buy some quality tires ($800), lower it ($275), get some performance brake pads and fluid (~$150) and it should be close enough to an M3's performance level to make it a driver's race. It's also the cheapest route to having a truly high performance car out of a Subaru.

If you really want it to be no question, do thicker sway bars, strut tower brace, bushings and before the protune also get a Process West TMIC and a bolt on turbo (there are several) or a FMIC and rotated setup. At this power level a better clutch would be necessary too, and while you're there also do a lightweight flywheel, and transmission and engine mounts. Take out the back seat, spare tire, put as little gas in as possible and go on a diet.

This is obviously a much more expensive route, and you're severely affecting the ride comfort, noise, vibration and drivability of the car. At this power level, forged pistons would be smart too. Costs rise exponentially, and practicality drops through the floor as you try to make a cheap car comparable to an expensive one. It sure is fun though!
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:23 PM   #50
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That's great. I don't drive like an asshat when it rains out.

It never fails. Every time we start comparing the almighty Wrx/STI to xyz car, some fanboy busts out the, "Yeah, your car might be faster, but lets race in the rain, snow, coming apocolypse and then see what happens!"

Then again, you wonder why so many of you idiots smash these things up when it's slick it out despite having AWD. It's because you really do think having AWD gives you license to do grossly retarded things out on the road.
feeling butthurt because i don't like mustangs?

my angle wasn't even the typical "yeah, but let's race in the rain". even in dry conditions, awd will win out. i don't understand where you were going with that.

the point is not how YOU drive when it rains. i don't even know you, who cares? the point is the limits of the car.

sorry, my asshattery car is my miata which i'm reminded everyday has less traction through turns than my wrx. the reason being is the rwd vs awd. i have decent rubber on both. hence, i have a pretty good foundation for my statement. and i autox. do you even track your AUTOMATIC ****stang (on venues with curves)? i'm not really sure you know who you're talking to. grow some thicker skin, stop being so hard-headed, and accept the truth.

Last edited by Nimbus09; 12-30-2012 at 10:33 PM.
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