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Old 12-28-2012, 07:33 AM   #26
Ziggyrama
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Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Should be. Don't forget you're also moving more air in colder months. Comp's may increase, but so does load. Which decreases timing

I still bet there is a slight difference in fuel quality for different months. How much, that I do not know
That is true. I can achieve higher loads in winter months which puts me in map areas that I would not hit in the summer. But, this is something different than what I was referring to. I was comparing load for load, meaning, that if you're hitting the same load in the summer and winter, the cold air will allow you to run more timing at that same load. If you're looking at it from the max load standpoint, than yes, you'll have to cut the timing but you're at a different load at that moment which is not an apples to apples comparison.

Anyways, we can see that people have different opinions on the matter. There's really no best seasons for tuning. I have done it in all 4 seasons and it's really not easier or harder to do it in one vs. the other.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:39 AM   #27
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I still bet there is a slight difference in fuel quality for different months. How much, that I do not know
That is possible. The stickers in the gas station say "up to 10%" ethanol. We could be getting 10% or 5% or 1%. Perhaps we get more ethanol in the mix in winter months and the content drops in summer. I tried to look for this info but it's not easily found. No one at the station can even point me in the direction of where to go to find out. I think the best way to know is to take a sample and test it and do it on periodic basis to find out what's really in it. Another thing to think about, as corn prices rise and ethanol becomes more expensive to produce, I imagine gas producers may cut the blend down to keep the prices from rising too much. I am sure they're under pressure to keep it as low as possible. May have an effect on how much is added to the mix.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #28
kellygnsd
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There is definitely a difference in the winter blend and the summer blend gasoline. Most of the formulational changes are to help cold start by varying the fuels vapor pressure and the ease that it atomizes in colder winter temps.

No matter how expensive ethanol is its still cheaper than the gasoline based additives that would be substituted if that 10% mixture of E wasn't used. I doubt the rising cost of E has anywhere near the effect on gas prices as much as the rising cost of crude oil.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:19 PM   #29
Black94Snake
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I would lean more towards the winter blend fuels likely having a lower ethanol content than the summer fuels, due to ethanols inability to burn correctly at low temperatures.

Look at how many E85 guys convert back to 93 octane in the winter...

It would also explain why I've been seeing MORE knock since the winter fuels really kicked in!
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post

That is possible. The stickers in the gas station say "up to 10%" ethanol. We could be getting 10% or 5% or 1%. Perhaps we get more ethanol in the mix in winter months and the content drops in summer. I tried to look for this info but it's not easily found. No one at the station can even point me in the direction of where to go to find out. I think the best way to know is to take a sample and test it and do it on periodic basis to find out what's really in it. Another thing to think about, as corn prices rise and ethanol becomes more expensive to produce, I imagine gas producers may cut the blend down to keep the prices from rising too much. I am sure they're under pressure to keep it as low as possible. May have an effect on how much is added to the mix.
That's because most gas stations are privately owned and only carry the fuel of the big company. Then there's the fuel distributors that move the fuel. Then there's the parent fuel company. Twice removed from the actual data and the actual parent company doesn't care to share their formula with you. Then there's the fact that there are variances regardless. Fuel in the tanks is never empty, rain water dilutes it sometimes, testing done on site also gets put back in the tanks. There IS no exact number. There is not a single person who can tell you the correct answer except somebody that will test on site.

There's your precise answer.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 12-28-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:54 AM   #31
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That's because most gas stations are privately owned and only carry the fuel of the big company. Then there's the fuel distributors that move the fuel. Then there's the parent fuel company. Twice removed from the actual data and the actual parent company doesn't care to share their formula with you. Then there's the fact that there are variances regardless. Fuel in the tanks is never empty, rain water dilutes it sometimes, testing done on site also gets put back in the tanks. There IS no exact number. There is not a single person who can tell you the correct answer except somebody that will test on site.

There's your precise answer.
This is true however the distributor does not blend their own formula. Neither does the gas station owner. Someone must know. There is some contamination at the site but that should not account for a major change in the ratios. It's not like the gas is half rain water. I bet ya whatever the producer put in is pretty close to what we get at the station. I understand that there are probably some variations between batches but I also find it hard to believe that the contents vary wildly between production runs. No one makes products like that on mass scale. Shell cannot pump out a 10% ethanol blend and follow it up by a 25% blend because the blending goblin had too much to drink the night before and dumped a few extra barrels into the pot. I bet the mixture is probably very consistent. Unless you're intimately involved with this process, your guess is as good as mine and I think mine is better than yours

Anyways, one way to find out: http://www.fuel-testers.com/

For academic reasons, I am thinking about picking up a kit and doing a once a month sampling of my local Shell station that I usually gas up at. The place was built very recently so I am hoping it does not suffer from long term exposure and contamination.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama
That is possible. The stickers in the gas station say "up to 10%" ethanol. We could be getting 10% or 5% or 1%. Perhaps we get more ethanol in the mix in winter months and the content drops in summer. I tried to look for this info but it's not easily found. No one at the station can even point me in the direction of where to go to find out. I think the best way to know is to take a sample and test it and do it on periodic basis to find out what's really in it.
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post

This is true however the distributor does not blend their own formula. Neither does the gas station owner. Someone must know. There is some contamination at the site but that should not account for a major change in the ratios. It's not like the gas is half rain water. I bet ya whatever the producer put in is pretty close to what we get at the station. I understand that there are probably some variations between batches but I also find it hard to believe that the contents vary wildly between production runs. No one makes products like that on mass scale. Shell cannot pump out a 10% ethanol blend and follow it up by a 25% blend because the blending goblin had too much to drink the night before and dumped a few extra barrels into the pot. I bet the mixture is probably very consistent. Unless you're intimately involved with this process, your guess is as good as mine and I think mine is better than yours

Anyways, one way to find out: http://www.fuel-testers.com/

For academic reasons, I am thinking about picking up a kit and doing a once a month sampling of my local Shell station that I usually gas up at. The place was built very recently so I am hoping it does not suffer from long term exposure and contamination.
I didn't suggest the distributor or station did any mixing. But again, the parent company knows what typical numbers are. They aren't sharing. That's what I was saying. The only way to know is to batch test on site.
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