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Old 01-04-2013, 12:56 AM   #1
silvercookie
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Default 2005 WRX 4eat. Hybrid. 280whp/390wtq.

Ok so it's not much to brag about, but thought it would gather some interest.
Please share your thoughts and opinions.


Facility: Performance Auto Solutions. Deer Park, NY.
Tuner: Dave Brown
Tuned with : Cobb Accessport.
Type of Dyno: Mustang Dyno
Year: 2005
Model: WRX
Transmission : 4EAT
Baseline # for a stocker at the dyno:-
Boost: 20psi
Fuel:BP 93oct.
Target AFR: ~11.0:1
SAE Corrections:-
Peak HP at RPM: 281 @ ~5350
Peak Torque at RPM: 389 @ ~3500
Mods:
Engine
2011 STi Shortblock.
Factory STi Forged Rods.
Factory Nitrided Crank.
11mm STi Oil pump.
Stock 2.0l heads.
Wiseco 99.5mm Pistons.
VF-48
Grimmspeed EBCS
Grimmspeed EWG 38MM Up-pipe.
TiAl MVS 38MM EWG.
STi TMIC
Perrin silicone turbo inlet
KStech 83mm Short Ram with K&N cone filter.
DeatschWerks 750cc Injectors.
Walboro 255lph
Invidia 3" bellmouth catless down-pipe.
JNA 3" catback.
GroupN Engine mounts
Torque Solutions v3 pitch stop.

Suspension/Wheels
Megan street coilovers (temporary)
Carbing rear strut bar.
Ebay H-brace.
2011 WRX wheels.
Continental DWS 235/45/17

Crappy pic of dyno sheet.


Final Dyno run.
And how it looks on the street.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:06 AM   #2
acheung
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any tranny work (i.e. modded tc or vb)? If not, are those coming next?
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:26 AM   #3
silvercookie
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Stock trans. Don't plan on doing anything to it at the moment.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:17 AM   #4
Coreycarlile911
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Man that tq spike is gnarly for a vf48. That has got to be a blast. To bad the hp isnt a little closer to the tq but in my opinion the tq is where all the fun is. Nice build tho Im at 300hp 325 tq on my stage 2 sti and would give my left but to have 380 tq.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:09 AM   #5
ProfessWRX
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Sounds off to me. That's a significant loss of power in the topend to the point where it has to be deliberate. Edit: auto. Yeah... I don't buy it.

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 01-05-2013 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:18 AM   #6
achavez
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Damn auto trans is causing some serious wtq with that torque converter. Nice!
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:08 AM   #7
Coreycarlile911
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I didn't even know there was such thing as auto trans in wrx. Is that pretty rare or just very undesirable cuz this is the first ive seen.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:50 AM   #8
mikeydrives1
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Dave does wonderous work on these things.

FYI, as a forester guy, i have been in other modified FXT's with 4EAT trans, pushing similiar torque. Yes the auto trans does something strange and puts the power down at the low end, there is no BS there folks. Dont be so quick to judge. You always see splits like this among the builds of forester XT's, Baja XT's, Outback XT's , Legacy GTs (5eat) and the occasional rare 4EAT wrx, only made up until 05. Plus its 2.5 bottom end.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:58 AM   #9
nate_fisher
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They actually made them up intill 2010 for the newer models they are called impreza GT which has a 4eat and a td04 turbo instead of a 5 speed and a vf52.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:13 AM   #10
rexworx
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Nice Vinny, glad to see your happy. These numbers are as real as it gets. Autotrans for you... most all the autos Ive seen really shift the power too the left. 4.11 gears...

Ian @ Performance Auto Solutions
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:08 AM   #11
shadowmd
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Very nice! We have identical long blocks lol bet its a blast to drive
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:28 AM   #12
tachrev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Nice Vinny, glad to see your happy. These numbers are as real as it gets. Autotrans for you... most all the autos Ive seen really shift the power too the left. 4.11 gears...

Ian @ Performance Auto Solutions
Lower gears don't move the curve anywhere, they multiply the numbers that are already there.

If the torque converter isn't locked, then it will multiply torque up to its stall speed. That can cause big low end torque spikes in automatic cars on the dyno.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:47 PM   #13
ProfessWRX
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Yeah. I don't buy it at all. Torque converters are KNOWN to artificially inflate dyno torque numbers.

Look how fast it dips. That's the converter. The torque doesn't magically go away like that.

Once the turbine, impeller and stator reach the same speed, multiplication stops and torque drops.

The only accurate dyno for an auto is with a locked converter. And I'm willing to bet a considerable amount the OP didn't have his locked.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #14
BlazeRex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
Yeah. I don't buy it at all. Torque converters are KNOWN to artificially inflate dyno torque numbers.

Look how fast it dips. That's the converter. The torque doesn't magically go away like that.

Once the turbine, impeller and stator reach the same speed, multiplication stops and torque drops.

The only accurate dyno for an auto is with a locked converter. And I'm willing to bet a considerable amount the OP didn't have his locked.
Who cares how the torque is made? It is, and thats all that matters. Really any car isn't 'accurate' to the engine hp and torque due to drivetrain loss on a chassis dyno. But guess what its more realistic than measuring on an engine dyno, because you are seeing what the wheels are recieving, not what the engine puts out.

I'm curious, was this pull done in 2nd or 3rd? Numbers seem high-ish for a 93 pump auto car on a mustang dyno.

Anyways, very nice car to the OP. Enjoy it! I love the auto myself, its much better than any 5 speed
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:23 PM   #15
ProfessWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Who cares how the torque is made? It is, and thats all that matters. Really any car isn't 'accurate' to the engine hp and torque due to drivetrain loss on a chassis dyno. But guess what its more realistic than measuring on an engine dyno, because you are seeing what the wheels are recieving, not what the engine puts out.
Wrong. Artificially inflated numbers are accurate?

Last edited by ProfessWRX; 01-05-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:12 PM   #16
BlazeRex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessWRX View Post
Wrong. Artificially inflated numbers are accurate?
How's it artifically inflated? You're measuring what's at the wheels. It's not the engine making all that torque, but there is torque multiplication through the TC which is brought at the wheels. Hence 390wtq, not 390 ctq.

Noone said that this engine paired to a manual gearbox would make these numbers, it would probably make more peak hp, less peak tq. Now your way of thinking, does this mean these horsepower / top end torque numbers artifically low due to the higher parsitic loss of a hydraulic automatic?

Edit: I kind of see where you can come from. Using like a road dyno software this becomes evident. If you are measuring how quick it can accelerate RPMs, then yes, this 'slip' is shows up as torque rise/then dip. However, I am very sure it measures torque simply by how quick it can accelerate the rollers and then assigns RPM datapoints to it afterwards, hence this is real torque. You could always measure it torque vs. time and see what happens.

Last edited by BlazeRex; 01-05-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:21 PM   #17
Dave D.
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This is exactly what torque converters do. I have a friend who had a 1969 340 Dodge Dart with an auto and the factory TC. Just couldn't quite break below 15 seconds in the quarter.

Got himself a high-stall track-designed converter and he was into the 13's.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:38 PM   #18
ProfessWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
How's it artifically inflated? You're measuring what's at the wheels. It's not the engine making all that torque, but there is torque multiplication through the TC which is brought at the wheels. Hence 390wtq, not 390 ctq.

Noone said that this engine paired to a manual gearbox would make these numbers, it would probably make more peak hp, less peak tq. Now your way of thinking, does this mean these horsepower / top end torque numbers artifically low due to the higher parsitic loss of a hydraulic automatic?

Edit: I kind of see where you can come from. Using like a road dyno software this becomes evident. If you are measuring how quick it can accelerate RPMs, then yes, this 'slip' is shows up as torque rise/then dip. However, I am very sure it measures torque simply by how quick it can accelerate the rollers and then assigns RPM datapoints to it afterwards, hence this is real torque. You could always measure it torque vs. time and see what happens.
So tell me what happens when you brake stall on the dyno.
What happens when you lock the converter?
What happens when you change your final drive ratio? Does gearing effect power output?

Why don't manual guys slip the clutch like they do a "launch" to raise measured torque on the dyno? Because it skews numbers? Nah, no way. It's cause they don't know how to get artificial numbers like a stall gives you.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:53 PM   #19
BlazeRex
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So tell me what happens when you brake stall on the dyno. Never done it, not sure what it would do.
What happens when you lock the converter? Torque Muliplication goes away
What happens when you change your final drive ratio? Does gearing effect power output? Yes.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:59 PM   #20
ProfessWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
So tell me what happens when you brake stall on the dyno. Never done it, not sure what it would do.
What happens when you lock the converter? Torque Muliplication goes away
What happens when you change your final drive ratio? Does gearing effect power output? Yes.
Seems like you haven't done a lot of things.

Why don't manual guys slip the clutch on dynos?

How does a dyno calculate torque? Does it use rpm? What happens if the Rpms are not directly connected to the drivetrain rotation?
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:02 PM   #21
rexworx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachrev View Post
Lower gears don't move the curve anywhere, they multiply the numbers that are already there.

If the torque converter isn't locked, then it will multiply torque up to its stall speed. That can cause big low end torque spikes in automatic cars on the dyno.
Not to start a pissing match but this car was locked into 2nd gear during the pull.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #22
Mike05wrx
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i'll vouch for this car. it's def quick and the torque is insane
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #23
Airboy
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The Torque curve, as plotted against engine RPM, is not accurate in the sense that the engine is not actually at the RPM indicated on the chart but I wouldn't go as far as "artificially inflating..." That RPM scale is calculated from the roller speed. As soon as you step on the gas, the engine will speed up to the stall speed and the wheels has to "catch up". The calculated RPM will be less than the actual engine speed.

That being said, the torque curve, as shown, does give an indication of the acceleration that you would feel. Imagine if you were blindfolded and didn't know the car had an automatic, would it feel like a lot of "low end" torque?

I made some plots and stuff that covers this:
http://tinyurl.com/b28nyx6
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:46 PM   #24
halokilller
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this is sick, nice video in the rain
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #25
tachrev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post

Not to start a pissing match but this car was locked into 2nd gear during the pull.
I thought you were implying that the 4.11 final drive would move the power curve to the left vs other final drive ratios.
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