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Old 01-12-2013, 10:08 PM   #26
Phatron
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I dont think my question was arrogant. It was a legit question. If 375whp is "typical" for a dom1.5 like topspeeds....then show me some more plots like that.

Their car also ran 11.2-11.3 @ 125mph.....that is not typical of a dom1.5 or any 47 lbm turbo. Most people will not even get low 11's on a rotated 3076 on e85.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:15 PM   #27
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your responses to peoples questions were arrogant. ts ran that time on e85 not on pump. its a 49lb turbo not 47.

ive made the points I feel I need to. no need to keep going back and forth with it. there are plenty of other dynos out there, but there really isnt a point is posting them is there? we'll argue some more and not reach any tangible conclusions.

there are a lot of factors outside your control. you have no legitimate way of knowing how the heads were done and are only going to get so far on an etune, and even if you did try to go back and double check things like the avcs timing can probably only get so far remotely.

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Old 01-12-2013, 10:24 PM   #28
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I didnt say that time was ran on pump. I was trying to illustrate that the time was not typical for that turbo. That car is making very "non typical" power for that turbo on both pump and e85.

And the compressor is rated at 49lbm, yes, BUT it has a 4mm smaller turbine wheel than a dom2.5xtr. So "actual flow" that this turbo can achieve is not going to be the same as a dom2.5xtr (or fp green) which are rated at 49lbm.

Here are 3 done by EFI....i would call these typical. And you'll notice one of them is also laggy on the tq. Maybe there has been issues with some of the turbos.


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Old 01-12-2013, 10:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
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I didnt say that time was ran on pump. I was trying to illustrate that the time was not typical for that turbo. That car is making very "non typical" power for that turbo on both pump and e85.

Here are 3 done by EFI....i would call these typical. And you'll notice one of them is also laggy on the tq. Maybe there has been issues with some of the turbos.

so you do agree that the one you tuned hit peak tq late. ok. so you think thats a problem with the turbo as dekivered from blouch?

what makes them tylical would you say? how did you choose them as 'tylical' results? upgrading to a dom1.5 on a stock catback is typical? what was baseline for those cars? are you comparing those mustang numbers to your built engine/head/cam dynojet numbers?
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:43 PM   #30
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heres more from cobb. also seems to show that there are 2 different versions of this turbo....half peak early, half late. half make 20-30whp more

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Old 01-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #31
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And again my point about "typical" was that YOU said these results were not typical.

Now tell me how you pick "typical" out of all the results posted above.

I really think we should ask Blouch about this. Only 3 of the ones on cobbs plots have fmic's so thats not it. The difference is way too big to be from 8cm vs 10cm.

I dont think i've tuned one thats hit peak boost by 3600rpm....so to me the late tq was normal. And also the reason i've said that this turbo is pointless to get...a 2.5 will spool the same and make more power. Now I see that something is up. interesting.

Last edited by Phatron; 01-12-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:57 PM   #32
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what fuel. what turbine housing. which cobb tuning facility. what other mods. what boost levels.

my guess would be the difference between 8cm and 10cm housings and some octane differences.

point being is here is a perfect example of you being a flaming ****ing ******* and proving nothing. especially since every one of those damn cars is on a stock block, stock head, stock cam motor. you made lower end of the hp average with the later peak tq....on a DYNOJET.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:09 PM   #33
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Im sorry you feel that way. You are correct that comparing things across dynos, octanes, locations, etc is pretty retarded.

All I know is that utlizing airboy, this car made more power than the other dom1.5's i've done on pump. Thats the software Im most familiar with and what I use to draw conclusions.

I just thought the results were interesting as not many people have cams on cars with turbos this small.

Im definately gonna ask blouch about the turbos though.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:15 PM   #34
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I was using the vd dyniject numbers of 350.

eitherway ill be interested in your results in talking to blouch. my GUESS is 8cm vs 10cm. maybe pick one shop at cobb and ask. my 20gxt with a td05 and a 10cm showed up late on the spool side and I think the 8cm would have been better.

my guess is the 10cm in single scroll is just too big
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:19 PM   #35
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If you look in topspeeds thread they already did 8 vs 10. And i've done it before myself, but i dont have the data anymore as it was 3-4 laptops ago. But the spool difference between housings is like 50-100rpm. I have never seen any data showing 400-600rpm spool difference between those housings.

From what I've done and seen I would say that every turbo on a subie should have a 10cm housing.

But again that all comes down to what each individual person wants. I will gladly take 100rpm loss in spool for 10-15whp up top, whereas that 100rpm spool might benefit an autox'er a great deal.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:27 PM   #36
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could be. my guess is that most subie tuners use the same avcs curve regardless of cams or hotside which is a large part of the problem.

I think the 10cm is too big for the td05 but makes less of a difference on the larger turbine. thats just a theory, though
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:33 PM   #37
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The problem with AVCS on a built motor is that 99% of people dont have the motor spec'd......so if you dont know how much AVCS you can run without banging the valves and pistons together, then you really cant utilize it to its full potential.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:36 PM   #38
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fair. but the majority of tuners on stock motors wouldnt care either. they would load cobb stage 2 curves and call it good

I think TS didnt see a big difference because they had a little cooler temps on the 10cm and Doug is probably one of if not the best tuner the community has.

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Old 01-13-2013, 09:37 AM   #39
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Hey guys just my two cents. From what i've read here on a dyno is just a tool. Numbers are just numbers. And there are many variables that can affect what is seen on a dyno chart.

On my vf tuned wrx, I made 310 hp tq peaking at aroung 4500 93 oct 21 psi. If i reseach on EFI logics dyno data base all the vf34 guys are making 270 ish and tq is peaking around 4k. Big difference in spool and power.

When Mikey did my E85 tune i made 324 hp on the same dyno that made 310hp with 93. Its was high 90's in the shop that day. A few weeks later when we did the final road tune i made 365 on Virtual dyno dyno jet and 350 hp on Airboy with temps close to 90 degrees.

How does top speeds dyno read? Their car made 375 hp? Their car also had a invidia race header that was thermal wrap. This 2011 wrx does not. We are also talking sti vs wrx, avcs vs no avcs. Avcs really help with spool.

Looking back at the EFI logics dyno data base graph, two cars are making almost identical numbers. The slower spooling one is the wrx non Avcs. The lines in blue are a little low and have later spool, but the other 2 cars both have invidia equal length headers. The car on the graph in blue also is only on 91 oct.

So on average 350 whp is a decent number for this car being lower reading software, conservative tuned, and tuned miles away where the tuner can't get a 100 percent true feeling for the car.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:56 AM   #40
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Phatron has it out for the 1.5XTR. He's convinced it sucks and will go out of his way to let people know this. This thread is just another example of this. Take it with a grain of salt. It's a biased opinion.

TopSpeed has had good luck with this turbo (on pump and E85). Their dyno definitely reads higher than Airboy, but it should be inline with Virtual Dyno - Dynojet. Check out rsutton's results from TopSpeed. He made 390's WHP with this turbo on a stock motor.

It's all just opinions and conclusions based on experiences with a handful of samples (as well as looking on the internet). I wouldn't get too caught up on it (from either point of view). Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to voice it on the internet.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #41
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I don't think its fair to say phatron has it out for this turbo. Topspeed did test it and have good results but you do not see those results repeated very often. i think all Ron is trying to say is that if your looking for a turbo upgrade in this size range than pick the 2.5xtr as it is better suites a 2.5L where the 1.5dom was designed for the two litter motor with a smaller compessor wheel mostly likely to aid with spool on the smaller motor.
Yes you can get good results with the 1.5 however if your buying a new turbo why not buy the one that would be ideal in that size of turbos = dom2.5
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:54 AM   #42
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Its no secret that phatron doesn't like any turbo with a td05h turbine wheel on a 2.5l, but I don't think it would be fair to imply he intentionally tuned the vehicle poorly because he doesn't like a customer's turbo choice....let's stay realistic.

I would assume that he could have gotten more out of it in person with a wide band and a dyno. Plus, we have no idea how the heads were done, and its not uncommon to have subaru heads get way over-ported, killing air velocity. He did say it was a conservative tune and he was on 91 octane. It might be right where it should be for the software he is using.

I think if you are looking for a quick spooling "oem +1" type power the 1.5 is a great turbo, personally. He would feel based on his tuning time that the 2.5 is the better way to go on a 2.5l. Regardless of what you choose, I don't see him 'throwing the tune' just because he doesn't prefer your part choices....
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:30 PM   #43
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Nice work. I am running a similar set-up with an 8cm. Only, I can't push too hard since I am on stock internals for now. I really love the larger TMIC and 1.5xtr combo, esp. for light track work where you get lots of air flow.

I there does seem to be strange variance in those Blouch turbos that has no real explanation. You can find my issues with the turbo in a different post.

Nice tune!
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:40 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtP View Post
Its no secret that phatron doesn't like any turbo with a td05h turbine wheel on a 2.5l, but I don't think it would be fair to imply he intentionally tuned the vehicle poorly because he doesn't like a customer's turbo choice....let's stay realistic.

I would assume that he could have gotten more out of it in person with a wide band and a dyno. Plus, we have no idea how the heads were done, and its not uncommon to have subaru heads get way over-ported, killing air velocity. He did say it was a conservative tune and he was on 91 octane. It might be right where it should be for the software he is using.

I think if you are looking for a quick spooling "oem +1" type power the 1.5 is a great turbo, personally. He would feel based on his tuning time that the 2.5 is the better way to go on a 2.5l. Regardless of what you choose, I don't see him 'throwing the tune' just because he doesn't prefer your part choices....
I don't think he "threw the tune" and I didn't say that. I just think he posted this an example of why he doesn't like this turbo.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:03 PM   #45
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I actually posted it for the opposite reason. making 340whp on airboy is something i dont usually see out of this turbo.

To suggest that i wasted my time making a thread to bash a turbo is beyond comical. I dont have any issues with the turbo. If thats what someone wants to run its fine by me. If someone is asking for advice before a build I will recommend the 2.5xtr over the 1.5xtr, because the 2.5 will make more power and spool virtually the same. The 1.5xtr was specifically made for 2L cars....its a 2.5 with a smaller turbine.....and for some reason, as you can see above on half the plots from cobb and EFI, half the time it spools at 4200-4300 rpm. And that has also been my experience with the turbo. I have not tuned any of the other variety that are spooling at 3600rpm.

I am very open about my stance on these things. I dont believe that putting anything below a 2.5xtr/Green on a 2.5L subaru is a worthwhile upgrade over a VF. Again, this mostly comes from working with 91oct where everything makes **** for power unless you're utilizing meth or e85. When you get into all the turbos in the 47-52lbm range....its just that I wouldnt pick the smaller ones because teh difference in spool is so marginal. Its just my personal preference....I really don't care if someone wants to run a td04 or dom1.5.....everybody has some idea of their perfect powerband.

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Old 01-13-2013, 08:28 PM   #46
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based on what youve tuned do you have a sense of where boost comes in between the 1.5 and the 2.5 in lower gears?
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:52 PM   #47
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its almost impossible for me to go back and dig this stuff out because i dont have the logs labelled by gear. I only do that kind of thing if im setting out to do a comparo or a certain test. I will try to do it on the next one. But just a rough estimate is to add 500-700 rpm each gear youre going down.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:01 PM   #48
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thats fine. I was interested in hearing your 'best guess' between 1.5 and 2.5
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