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Old 01-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #76
bakadayo
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Another pro for sticking with a simple gas tax increase is that it will hit the idlers as well. Although recent idling laws have helped, I still see a lot of people idling away which is just wasteful and for the most part, unnecessary.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #77
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There are idling laws?
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:15 PM   #78
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There are idling laws?
yes. But usually only enforced in loading zones (bus stops, transit stops) and other areas near population (grocery store, malls etc).
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:59 PM   #79
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Increasing the gas tax will be cyclical. We're seeing it now as the call for alternative fuels and more fuel efficient cars are paying less in gas taxes. That is the crux of the issue.

Increase the tax on gas, cars become more economical, less gas being purchased, less taxes coming in to pay for repairs, tax has to increase again, cars become more economical, less gas being purchased, less taxes coming in to pay for repairs, tax has to increase again, cars become more economical, less gas being purchased, less taxes coming in to pay for repairs, tax has to increase again, cars become more economical, less gas being purchased, less taxes coming in to pay for repairs, tax has to increase again.

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Old 01-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #80
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Yes, but what we do then is enact a EV and hybrid usage tax.

It is not fair that they get to use the roads as much as other people in their heavy battery assisted cars and not pay for the damage they are causing...

It is time they pay their fair share as well.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:29 PM   #81
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Permits have nothing to do with log books. Who is going to actually check or prove you have or havent stopped in 3 hours? Flatbed or not NO ONE does it and i dont believe its actually a rule anymore.

Either way a tax based on miles is going to raise the price on everything. We add a fuel surcharge for every delivery even if its 1 case.
Actually my statement about permits was to show integration of computers and internet into the cab of an 18 wheeler. Which is when the started e-logs. But you are wrong, weigh stations always random check permits and logs. Police always check logs if you drive irradically, have an accident, or sometimes just because if you get pulled over for something else. Permits specify a very specific route and states traveled. They will back log you for anything suspicious to make sure you didnt fudge your log books like you drove an extra 2-3 hours at night, or on the weekend etc....

As for 150 miles or 3 hours, thats in the CDL manual and i took the test 2 years ago, so obviously truck drivers are lazy if the dont follow the rules. No wonder equipment falls off and kills people. That rule is well known at my company, we"re encouraged to buy fuel or a candy car so we have a receipt showing we stopped.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:02 PM   #82
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Why in the world would you charge people a road tax on a vehicle instead of taxing them based on the damage they do to roads.
Because not all damage to roads is incremental wear cause by use. Much of it is simply age. So a gas tax is only a half-solution. Charge a use tax to pay for the portion of the damage which is expected due to aging, and charge a gas tax for incremental wear.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:06 PM   #83
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Yes, but what we do then is enact a EV and hybrid usage tax.

It is not fair that they get to use the roads as much as other people in their heavy battery assisted cars and not pay for the damage they are causing...

It is time they pay their fair share as well.
As long as you start charging lots more for gas use since it pollutes our cities and kills us that sounds fair.

@ Sniper that is actually a good point, but we already often have registration fees etc... that sort of cover the use. Furthermore it doesn't make sense to have people pay for aging that don't drive on the road. Gas use still correlates to mileage which is a fairer way to distribute that cost.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:20 PM   #84
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I still think that gas tax should be very high in dense populated areas and very low in sparsely populated areas. The most interesting aspect of funding our roads is the tax structure and it was only a matter of time before governments started to feel the pinch of more economic vehicles and decreased tax revenues from those gas taxes. Some sort of road use fee will probably be initiated at some point based on vehicle type and weight. Maybe our leaders could figure out what roads are generating revenue and put what money they generated back into those roads and roads that do not generate revenue need private dollars or just fall into disrepair. Hopefully someoone will show some math that makes sense.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:38 PM   #85
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How about smarter spending on the roads? Here in NJ it's pretty damn common in my area to have roads paved RIGHT before winter. Low and behold a thousand potholes come spring time from fresh pavement and the ever so expensive yet lack luster pot hole fix. If government was actually ethical and not trying to give their big money friends business at our expense maybe roads could be affordable.

BTW what's the government stance on the gas tax for when you're on a toll road? Technically you are paying for wear of a road you're not even driving on through the gas tax. I wonder what's the ratios of miles driven on toll roads and public roads and if the gas tax in some ways pays towards the cost of toll?
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:40 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Yes, but what we do then is enact a EV and hybrid usage tax.

It is not fair that they get to use the roads as much as other people in their heavy battery assisted cars and not pay for the damage they are causing...

It is time they pay their fair share as well.
My hybrid station wagon weighs less than your compact hatchback.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:13 PM   #87
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Irrelevant.

You are not paying your fair share regardless. Your improved fuel economy means you are not paying your fair share for the roads you use. You are in the 1% who get an unfair amount of mileage, and use your mpg as a loophole to avoid paying road taxes...

how do you sleep at night!!
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #88
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Furthermore it doesn't make sense to have people pay for aging that don't drive on the road.
You still benefit from roads you've never driven on, primarily through shipping but also possibly through business encouragement, tourist dollars, not having to live with your inlaws, or other transportation-related stuff. Now, admittedly, it doesn't make sense for you to pay for aging on somebody else's neighborhood roads, but we can't really make our tax structure quite so fine-grained.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:17 PM   #89
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Irrelevant.

You are not paying your fair share regardless. Your improved fuel economy means you are not paying your fair share for the roads you use. You are in the 1% who get an unfair amount of mileage, and use your mpg as a loophole to avoid paying road taxes...

how do you sleep at night!!
Don't worry, being DINK for nearly 6 years and not paying enough interest on my house to itemize, I've paid my fair share in taxes.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:50 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
You still benefit from roads you've never driven on, primarily through shipping but also possibly through business encouragement, tourist dollars, not having to live with your inlaws, or other transportation-related stuff. Now, admittedly, it doesn't make sense for you to pay for aging on somebody else's neighborhood roads, but we can't really make our tax structure quite so fine-grained.
You are making a big mistake though when you try to make this claim. How much do we spend on security for our oil supply (hint it is really a lot)? We would not have to do that if people did not drive as much. So the person that drivers far less is already paying huge amounts for that shipping and other transportation related stuff.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #91
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No more taxes!!!!
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:32 AM   #92
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Don't worry, being DINK for nearly 6 years and not paying enough interest on my house to itemize, I've paid my fair share in taxes.
Ouch, yes you have

my condolences..

I remember those days!

Oh by the way, I regret to inform you that you are a rich bastard and there is no amount of taxes that is too much.

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Old 01-14-2013, 08:08 AM   #93
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Don't worry, being DINK for nearly 6 years and not paying enough interest on my house to itemize, I've paid my fair share in taxes.
Story of my life right here. Even when I was a SINK, I think I got to itemize just once (the year I bought my house).. and that was just barely. Been saving receipts and calculating deductions every year since.. only to take the standard deduction.

I'm guessing the kid in '12 and the wife quitting her job will change things this year.. I can finally suck on the Gov teat.
trollin fer Scrappy
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:19 AM   #94
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You are making a big mistake though when you try to make this claim. How much do we spend on security for our oil supply (hint it is really a lot)? We would not have to do that if people did not drive as much. So the person that drivers far less is already paying huge amounts for that shipping and other transportation related stuff.

?

I was thinking more along the lines of fruits, veggies, milk, sex toys from amazon, etc. When somebody drives to the store and buys a product your company makes you are directly benefiting from roads you never travel on. Our country's infrastructure, like roads and the electrical grid, benefit the entire population or the country excepting those mighty few who live totally off the grid.

Technically, in order to be fair, the use tax would be a yearly tax for everybody, not just those who have car-related activities.

Last edited by sniper1rfa; 01-14-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:17 AM   #95
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Story of my life right here. Even when I was a SINK, I think I got to itemize just once (the year I bought my house).. and that was just barely. Been saving receipts and calculating deductions every year since.. only to take the standard deduction.

I'm guessing the kid in '12 and the wife quitting her job will change things this year.. I can finally suck on the Gov teat.
trollin fer Scrappy
At least part of your deductions are towards an asset. Every year for me itemizing (hello high sales tax) is within a few dollars of the standard deduction.

2013 might be different with a cross country move.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:30 AM   #96
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Yes, but what we do then is enact a EV and hybrid usage tax.

It is not fair that they get to use the roads as much as other people in their heavy battery assisted cars and not pay for the damage they are causing...

It is time they pay their fair share as well.
I can see that happening over time; but not anytime soon. We are still in the beginning of switching over to an electric paradigm for our automotive transportation. I can see in the future when: vehicular surcharge on electric bill based on vehicle registration, or surcharge on a specific outlet. But the latter seems very easily defeated. Also, when gas pumps have switched over to electric charging stations, there should be a comparable electric tax on that too. But again, I think it's too early for that. In the future when electric is mainstream, definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
Because not all damage to roads is incremental wear cause by use. Much of it is simply age. So a gas tax is only a half-solution. Charge a use tax to pay for the portion of the damage which is expected due to aging, and charge a gas tax for incremental wear.
I believe other taxes and fees already cover this.

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Originally Posted by sgilson View Post
I still think that gas tax should be very high in dense populated areas and very low in sparsely populated areas.
I'm not sure I agree with this. People who live in dense area (say downtown) most likely take the transit, bike, etc. and only drive out. It doesn't make sense to penalize them that way to me. On the flip side, there are lots of suburbanites whom drive in from their sparse area, and so shouldn't they be taxed more? They could very easily fill up away from downtown although they use the roads much more than the people who live there.

I'd rather see a city core toll/entrance fee like London has - I believe they call it congestion charge.

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
How about smarter spending on the roads? Here in NJ it's pretty damn common in my area to have roads paved RIGHT before winter. Low and behold a thousand potholes come spring time from fresh pavement and the ever so expensive yet lack luster pot hole fix. If government was actually ethical and not trying to give their big money friends business at our expense maybe roads could be affordable.
I'll definitely agree with this. There's a lot of rhetoric about spending cuts, but I think more focus should be on identifying and cutting out the "gravy"; it's a fine line of difference between the two IMHO; and I think people who are mis-using funds to benefit their buddies should be put to task for conflict-of-interest/fraud or whatever it's called.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #97
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I can see that happening over time; but not anytime soon. We are still in the beginning of switching over to an electric paradigm for our automotive transportation. I can see in the future when: vehicular surcharge on electric bill based on vehicle registration, or surcharge on a specific outlet. But the latter seems very easily defeated. Also, when gas pumps have switched over to electric charging stations, there should be a comparable electric tax on that too. But again, I think it's too early for that. In the future when electric is mainstream, definitely.
Yup. Avoiding taxes is a great motivator for progress. It's how places like Silicon Valley are formed.. tax breaks allow companies and individuals to invest money into higher risk technologies.

I don't think electric cars should be taxed the same way gasoline cars are.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:46 PM   #98
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A good point brought up here, is that if you tax on a yearly basis much like your income tax. People will find good ways to avoid it, like the miles are included in their business travel so they include it with their deduction etc.....

If you charge a new car road usage tax, you can't avoid or fraud it. The dealership collects the money and sends it to the government bank account along with their sales tax. Everything is charge at one time, far less administration and headache for drivers. The tax is rolled into the car loan so it's alot easier to pay for spread out over 12 monthly payments for 5-6 years. The added bonus to the goverment is less controversy and backlash. Paying another yearly tax will rile the people up every time they have to calculate their mileage and write out a fat check.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:15 PM   #99
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?

I was thinking more along the lines of fruits, veggies, milk, sex toys from amazon, etc. When somebody drives to the store and buys a product your company makes you are directly benefiting from roads you never travel on. Our country's infrastructure, like roads and the electrical grid, benefit the entire population or the country excepting those mighty few who live totally off the grid.

Technically, in order to be fair, the use tax would be a yearly tax for everybody, not just those who have car-related activities.
Everyone who pays into the general fund is already paying a huge amount to subsidize those transportation activities via the fuel used. That is the point.
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