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Old 08-01-2011, 09:39 PM   #26
nevin95 LSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kastley85891 View Post
Yes they will be off, you will be leaner on gauge then you actually are running. I usually just target my AFR regardless TBH, pre or post cat placement.

I'm not bashing your thoughts at all, but if that's the case then why is it that many tuners will hang a WBo2 on the tailpipe when tuning a car? The a/f reading would be all the same to the tailpipe wouldn't it?

All the molecules are still in there aren't they? Some may be broken down, but the sensor would still recognize them, would it not? And if that's the case, why would subaru put it there from the factory? Furthermore, wouldn't the up-pipe cat also throw the reading off?

That aside, to the original poster, I have no cats in my system, so even if that were true, my reading would still be un-skewed.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:55 PM   #27
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^^ Nope.

The further away from the engine you are, the leaner the reading will be.

Tuning to 11-11.2 at the downpipe can see 11.8-12 at the tailpipe.....depending on how many cats and resonators are in the system.

When the stock sensor reads 14.7 in the header my AEM reads 14.9-15.2 at the rear of the downpipe (catless).
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:00 PM   #28
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Well alright then. How many cats are in your system?

Like I said, not bashing, this is just some more for me to learn. I by no means have it all figured out. I'll do some more reading up on the subject.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevin95 LSi View Post
Well alright then. How many cats are in your system?
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
(catless) .
if you google search for wideband readings at various points in the exhaust you can find plots where people have both simultaneously....tailpipe is leaner
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:12 PM   #30
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I'm guessing that tuners hang a WB off the tailpipe when they don't have other options. They can't very easily weld a bung to the exhaust just to do a tune. Plus in many cases those cars probably are catless. The reason that a WB after the cat isn't as accurate is because the catalytic conversion creates and destroys O2 molecules (different than oxygen atoms), so there is more or less O2 molecules leaving the cat than entering it. The number of atoms is the same though. The O2 sensor only measures O2, so if those oxygen atoms are bound to other atoms, the sensor has no idea. Check out the wikipedia article on catalytic converters.

The reason there is a O2 sensor after the cat is to determine if the cat is working properly. It has nothing (or very little) to do with how the ECU adjusts fueling. That's what the O2 sensor in the manifold is for. The up-pipe cat probably does affect the WB reading, but since that cat is pretty small, the effect is probably pretty minor.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:00 PM   #31
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So in a catless system, would the results be the same, front to rear in an ideal situation?
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:09 PM   #32
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Didn't I already tell u no?

I have a lc1 in my Sti and wrx with uego and an lm1 for the tail pipe. Trust me, they don't read the same.

Last edited by Phatron; 08-01-2011 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:20 PM   #33
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You told me no, but you didn't specify if that was catted or catless. I asked if you had any cats, and you never answered so I was just wondering for clarification purposes.

*edit*

I apologize, I re-read again where you said (catless) and I admit I indeed had not noticed that before. My mistake. Thanks for your reply.

Last edited by nevin95 LSi; 08-01-2011 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevin95 LSi View Post
You told me no, but you didn't specify if that was catted or catless. I asked if you had any cats, and you never answered so I was just wondering for clarification purposes.
I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
When the stock sensor reads 14.7 in the header my AEM reads 14.9-15.2 at the rear of the downpipe (catless) .

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevin95 LSi View Post
Well alright then. How many cats are in your system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
(catless) .

Last edited by Phatron; 08-01-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:51 AM   #35
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Very interesting that the O2 levels are higher the further downstream you go. I guess it makes sense that the molecules would react some even in the absence of a catalyst.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:54 AM   #36
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i dont have any data to post up cause i couldnt get the lc-1 and lm-1 to log at the same time in RR....but if you google search for "wideband differences in exhaust location" or something to that effect you will find some results.

I found some pretty graphs before that had 3 widebands at varying distances in the exhaust (close, middle, tailpipe) and it was progressively leaner the further it got. It was posted up by a domestic shop because they were constantly getting grief for tuning cars "so lean" at the tail pipe so they did it to prove that it wasnt any different that what the home tuners were doing in the middle of the exhaust.

And if you go back through ppb and look at Jorge's plots from P&L you will see he posts up 12:1 AFR plots constantly.....sensor in the tailpipe.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevin95 LSi View Post
AEM's installation instructions say to keep the sensor 36" away from the exhaust port on turbocharged applications, so the sensor won't burn up so quick.
I think the intention here was 36 inches from the exhaust port of the engine, not 36 inches from the exhaust of the turbo. If you look at both of the install videos I posted in the first post of this thread, they mount the sensor just a few inches back from the turbo.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:34 PM   #38
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Yes, if you read what you just quoted me you'll find that's what I said too. 36" away from the exhaust port. Behind the turbo is fine, but if you can keep it away a bit more, you'll just get a bit more life out of it, although as I've found, the reading will be a bit off.

More than one way to skin a cat.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:17 PM   #39
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I had talked to aem a couple years back about a install, and they told me you should keep the sensor 16-18 inches from the turbo, the heat will shorten the life span of the sensor. If you look at the comments on the first video someone from aem comments on the sensor on the s2k being to close to the turbo.
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:43 PM   #40
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Welp, shows what I know.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:55 AM   #41
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What is the range of the digit read out on the screen for this gauge?
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:42 AM   #42
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It bottoms out at 10 and goes up to 22 iirc
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:57 PM   #43
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I woldn't worry too much about placement of the sensor itself, I've had my sensors within a few inches of the turbine exit for years. Started doing that with my first exhaust set up being APS which provided a second sensor bung about 3" aft of the turbo that first sensor lasted almost 3 years.

I'm up in the air about the lc-1 verses the uego, while I've run an lc-1 now for over 6 years, I did have to replace the controller once, but given the amount of use I have gotten from them I couln't complain. Currently I use the Innovate lc-1 with their combo wideband/turbo timer/volt guage and love it just for simplicities sake. I like a stock looking interior. In the past I had their xd-16 which I also liked. On the other hand, I link about 80% of the cars I've tuned run the uego and they do work great. I think if I had to go with a new set up, I'd go with the aem or the new mtx-l just for simplicities sake and like Ron mentioned, the idea of not having to calibrate just makes life that much easier.

Trey
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kornfeld View Post
I think the intention here was 36 inches from the exhaust port of the engine, not 36 inches from the exhaust of the turbo. If you look at both of the install videos I posted in the first post of this thread, they mount the sensor just a few inches back from the turbo.
Ya it seems like alot of people run the sensor in the "bellmouth" part of the Dp.....where most dp manufactures weld in the bung.

Can anyone tell me EXACTLY how they wired theirs up please (ran what wires to what wires)

Thanks
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:51 PM   #45
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I still dont agree with mounting the sensor right off the turbo. they last longer if you put them at the rear of the dp.

As for electrical..

Power to radio power
Ground to radio ground
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:04 PM   #46
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I still dont agree with mounting the sensor right off the turbo. they last longer if you put them at the rear of the dp.

As for electrical..

Power to radio power
Ground to radio ground
There is a

Red---ignition
White-----analog output/data logging
Blue------NOT USED
Black-----ground

This is what was said in the video. So I am assuming there is only 1 black wire running to the radio?

However for the red wire the guy in the vid said run it to the ignition so the gauge is only on when the car is running

I have no idea on what wire and what color wire to run this too lol


And for these wires should I just "T" into them and then use electrical tape?

Thanks again....
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:21 PM   #47
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you're gonna need to find a wiring diagram for the ignition stuff..idk which wire that is.

thats why i used the radio...i already had a deck in and i knew which one was power/ground.....its usually pretty simple though as red is power and black is ground 99.9% of the time. if you wire it to the radio...u just have to turn the radio on for the gauge to be on...but mine was always on.

for how you connect the wires....if you want a no worry good install you should solder and use heat shrink .

if you;re lazy like me and you want to install it in 5 minutes you use wire nuts
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
you're gonna need to find a wiring diagram for the ignition stuff..idk which wire that is.

thats why i used the radio...i already had a deck in and i knew which one was power/ground.....its usually pretty simple though as red is power and black is ground 99.9% of the time. if you wire it to the radio...u just have to turn the radio on for the gauge to be on...but mine was always on.

for how you connect the wires....if you want a no worry good install you should solder and use heat shrink .

if you;re lazy like me and you want to install it in 5 minutes you use wire nuts

I would rather just wire it so its always on rather than having to turn on the radio......made me laugh thou
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #49
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My aftermarket decks all turn on with the ign....

Who drives without the radio on anyway?
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:15 PM   #50
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I installed my UEGO in the lower part of the downpipe (catless), few inches before the O2 sensor. Would it be an issue? Could the readings be affected?
Thanks,
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