Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday September 19, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2012, 10:07 PM   #26
jura11
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 255146
Join Date: Aug 2010
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Ashford,UK
Vehicle:
2001 2002 WRX Wagon
WR BLUE

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
To come back on the Syvecs topic of ALS.....

As Jura mentioned running proper ALS loses the Servo completely.....
I have been running proper ALS for larfs on my DBW car but when you lift off the turbo is still whilstling like it is when spooling No brakes so electric pump or very proper brakes are a must.

Needless to say EGTs go to 1000*C VERY quickly. When you don't spend too much time off the throttle it is OK but not long term.

TBH. ALS is merely a way to keep up EGTs mainly and keep turbo shaft speed up.
When you want to do a proper ALS setup you should have a turbo shaft speed sensor for the simple reason that it can give a good indication whether you are heading in the right direction with ignition retard and fueling or not. More Pops and Bangs doesn't mean anything!

People saying they want ignition cut don't want their engine to last very long I reckon. Ignition CUT causes fuel residue to explode in the headers causing uncontrollable boost rise and damage to the turbines and ex. valves which could be pressed back off the seat and into the piston.

The loud banging and popping is a waste of time. Whilst it may sound cool it is just a waste of energy. The loud banging and popping indicating the mixture is ignited PAST the turbine wheel. For proper ALS drive you need to think of a smooth and continuous pressurization of the turbine which can be done with some ignition retard to have most of the exhaust energy going to the turbine.

Even with a Jacked open throttle you can idle the car normally since you can set a certain fuel cut, etc. for when the ALS is not activated yet throttle is still jacked. Usually high percentage of Fuel cut should be used here with not too much retard to keep heat out of the system.

Jura: Looking at your boost recovery on your LOGs you might want to start using FFS first to prevent those dips almost back to zero. You can keep boost almost at a straight line when shifting. Much more worthwhile for dragracing.


My 2 cents,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
Agreed completely

Yes Turbo sensor which we would like to sort too in coming weeks,have looked on the Syvecs forum where is good thread and still think this should be good to have

FFS should be good to have,but still i'm not convinced to use on the H-pattern box,do you have experience using this on the H-pattern box?



Jura
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
jura11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 04:04 AM   #27
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Quote:
Exactly; I suspect one of the reasons they used to have a lot of turbos fail was due to overspeeding them, as without any way to accurately control things or feedback on speed it seems easy to do. I have a little experience making microcontrollers do things, so with some forms of ECU, it might not be impractical to have a black box telling it how rich to go and controlling the antilag specific parts.

I'm seriously thinking I need to get a testbed engine to experiment with. I mean, why risk destroying good parts first? I don't really have the funding this year though... something about getting married.
I just so happen to be in the same boat haha, next week for me if you want to shoot me an email i'd be very interested to talk with you more about the little black box project, i've also been kicking around the idea of a second control unit strictly for AL would be great to brain storm with you on the topic. tuning@brewedmotorsports.com (Eric)
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 04:44 AM   #28
jkopinga
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220799
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Taiwan
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX
WRC Blue

Default

^^^ Guys, I don't want to spoil the fun but..............
I wouldn't use a "2nd brain" to control something like ALS besides the ECU.

I have seen a lot of cars go POP because they have too many electronic gadgets that control too many different things without proper failsafe links between them.

In my opinion if the ECU you are using cannot do everything you want to do then it's time to look for one that can!

BTW... The "Subaru Rocket" setup is indeed a selfsustaining turbine when it is spun up. It would be nice to try to replicate this kind of ALS but unless you are sponsored by a turbo manufacturer who gives you turbos for free I would try to stay with more conventional methods of ALS.

The biggest advantage of the "Rocket" versus conventional ALS is that the air to keep the turbine spinning DOES NOT have to pass through the engine. Therefore the engine stays much cooler and has to handle less stress. Conventional ALS has the air passing through the engine with ignition retard creating very high EGTs to spin the turbine which is passing the exhaust valves which are not going to be too happy about that.

Jasper.
jkopinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 05:07 AM   #29
jkopinga
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220799
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Taiwan
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX
WRC Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Agreed completely

FFS should be good to have,but still i'm not convinced to use on the H-pattern box,do you have experience using this on the H-pattern box?


Jura
Jura, I have been running FFS for long time on the 6spd. H-pattern without any ill affects. You can set it up very conservative which means that you do not have to FORCE a shift to get it done in time.

For a conservative setup you should set the Gearcut request times as long as possible with the function enabled that the Gearcut request will be cleared as soon as the Gearcut request is undone. This way you can "Granny FFS" the box but also very fast just depending on when you release the clutch pedal. (max. time = 1sec. which is more than enough!)

You can then use a combination of Fuel cut (75% or more I recommend) and also mix in a Ignition Retard (10 to 20*) depending on how fast you want the TQ to fade out. If TQ fall off is still too slow with all that you could mix in a Ignition Cut (25-50%)

DO NOT USE IGNITION CUT ONLY!! But if you do make sure you have somebody videotape it and send me a copy

If you need help setting up shoot me a PM and I'll give you my email address so you can shoot me over your CAL. file.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
jkopinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 06:35 AM   #30
vteclol
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 280855
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NEPA
Default

I know there is an informative conversation going on here, but I'm just gonna leave this here...

Last edited by vteclol; 07-30-2012 at 07:05 AM.
vteclol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 09:29 AM   #31
mekilljoydammit
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 258151
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Wisconsin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
^^^ Guys, I don't want to spoil the fun but..............
I wouldn't use a "2nd brain" to control something like ALS besides the ECU.
Mostly to make it clear who I'm addressing than to go on that one specific point.

First off, I agree on the topic of adding boxes, for the most part. When/if I get to making a testbed though, the main factor is being able to make it do whatever I want without headaches to figure out what is physically going on. I see it as too many variables at the start of everything to put up with some of the variables being hidden.

Second off, I figure that for the purposes of figuring out how to make it work at all, I'm prepared to not worry too much about blowing stuff up. No reason to have a fully built engine with state of the art turbos and all the rest when all I'm after is trying to figure out how to get a combustor to burn the exhaust from an over-rich engine, feed it into a turbo, and control the turbo speed.

Later on, sure, but I figure it's going to take some work to dial in on what the combustor can needs to look like internally.

As for turbo lifespan with the combustor can setups... I dunno. I have my suspicions that it might be kinder to the turbo than conventional ALS methods like throttle jacking and retarding the ignition, in addition to being easier on the engine. I suspect that the nature of the pulses in the exhaust from the ignition retard style antilag are a big part of what's hard on the turbo and that something closer to steady state constant combustion will work better; it works for gas turbines after all.

Not that I can prove any of that at this point, but it makes sense to me anyway.
mekilljoydammit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:17 AM   #32
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
^^^ Guys, I don't want to spoil the fun but..............
I wouldn't use a "2nd brain" to control something like ALS besides the ECU.

I have seen a lot of cars go POP because they have too many electronic gadgets that control too many different things without proper failsafe links between them.

In my opinion if the ECU you are using cannot do everything you want to do then it's time to look for one that can!

BTW... The "Subaru Rocket" setup is indeed a selfsustaining turbine when it is spun up. It would be nice to try to replicate this kind of ALS but unless you are sponsored by a turbo manufacturer who gives you turbos for free I would try to stay with more conventional methods of ALS.

The biggest advantage of the "Rocket" versus conventional ALS is that the air to keep the turbine spinning DOES NOT have to pass through the engine. Therefore the engine stays much cooler and has to handle less stress. Conventional ALS has the air passing through the engine with ignition retard creating very high EGTs to spin the turbine which is passing the exhaust valves which are not going to be too happy about that.

Jasper.
Yes secondary air injection style ALS is exactly what I am talking about as well I couldn't agree more that this is far superior to a throttle kick set up that requires the air to pass through the engine first. Which is exactly why this is the type of system i am working on for my personal projects.
Prodrive has developed an absolutely amazing system for both competition (wrc) and street use (P2) with the "rocket" When compared to some of the other secondary air injection systems being used for als by other manufactures i believe the rocket is one of if not the best for what i want to do at this point. The design is literally a simple turbine engine many people build as a hobby. Main difference being most just mount the turbine engine to a bench and run it off propane. Us boost junkies on the other hand want that same simple turbine engine mounted next to our internal combustion piston engines.

I couldn't agree more in a perfect world I would have an ecu that did whatever i pleased however sense that is not a reality for me I have few ideas on ways to incorporate a second "brain" into the mix while still maintaining fail safes.
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 07:48 AM   #33
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

Tunermt

I have an arduino, and a full SAS hardware set for my EVO. I see you on EVOM i believe and myhandle there is 211ratsbud. I have a good read thread in ECU flsh about trying to get the EVO stuff working.

If a black project box is something you can do, I have a good test bed and the will to donate!

Teamcolors30@yahoo.com
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 11:03 AM   #34
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Sounds like you've got everything you need to make it work if you have a tactrix cable email me your current rom file and I'll help you set up the ALS on the software side.

With your set up a "black box" should not be needed. (An egt gauge would be very nice)
Also sent ya an email of course.
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 12:28 AM   #35
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 01:11 AM   #36
rocketperson7
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 283968
Join Date: May 2011
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
MBP

Default

people have been making jet engines out of turbos for years, and then strapping them to go-karts


before I could even drive I tried to do this with a blown vf-40, and although the only thing I accomplished was almost blowing myself up..I found a few interesting websites

http://www.rcdon.com/html/gr-1_turbo...ct_3_8_04.html

Last edited by rocketperson7; 11-16-2012 at 01:17 AM.
rocketperson7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 06:10 AM   #37
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

I fancy the pulse jet engine powered carts
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:13 AM   #38
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Headed back to the states this week and will be back with my S13, I'll only have a few days but hope to have enough time to implement some new hardware (secondary air injection)
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 08:29 PM   #39
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

mines in the works, eric, havent heard from you in a while! check my new hardware out.



Still need to sort out details but its on !

details of the ford fiesta with a similar type of anti lag valve are here..
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2013, 03:52 AM   #40
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Hell yes great to see things coming together but oh man 4g63 owner and modder posting the set up on nasioc i hope you didn't spontaneously combust for this! haha JK of course.

Looks like you've got the key parts installed, shoot me an email when you have some time I have some extra free time at the moment now that the Thai/Asian touring car series is over.

I'll have 4 days in AZ/with my s13 starting Monday, we'll see just how much i can manage to get done as far as the ALS goes.

PS: what is the fitting setup on the manifold? Male flares on the manifold and the SS hard line flared?
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 08:18 PM   #41
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

I used to be a subie owner. I still miss it every day!
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 02:55 PM   #42
Matty_STi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333602
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2012 STi
DGM

Default

Cool thread!!
Matty_STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 04:34 PM   #43
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

I believe my set up will end up being the fresh air type even though appearantly the mitsu version expects a throttle kick. Im moving to a spare manifold and new air injection manifold set up which will more closeley represent the WRC car and not the group a car. The group a is usually a throttle kick + sas, and the WRC car is full fresh air als.

I think the subaru platform in and of itself offers a few advantages for tinkerer's ..

Last edited by Dubstar112; 01-14-2013 at 04:48 PM.
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:24 PM   #44
Matty_STi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333602
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2012 STi
DGM

Default

I built a turbo based jet engine with some friends in high school....

hrrmmmmmmmmmmmmm Dare I dream of the promise land???

I do plan on using a syvecs S8 on my build, so more than capable of controlling this sort of setup...

I think when I get my motor and trans upgrades finished this summer I may have to play around with this.. Such a cool idea, and it sounds so much cooler than the throttle jacked over rich ALS (and of course the turbo is always spooled)..

Matt
Matty_STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:24 PM   #45
Matty_STi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333602
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2012 STi
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstar112 View Post
I believe my set up will end up being the fresh air type even though appearantly the mitsu version expects a throttle kick. Im moving to a spare manifold and new air injection manifold set up which will more closeley represent the WRC car and not the group a car. The group a is usually a throttle kick + sas, and the WRC car is full fresh air als.

I think the subaru platform in and of itself offers a few advantages for tinkerer's ..
What sort of material are you using in yours to cope with the heat and pressure?

Matt
Matty_STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 11:01 PM   #46
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

i kicked my throttle tonight and achieved around 7psi with -14 ign timing. I can go to -20. this with a 30 percent throttle opening that reads 16 at idle, so im only adding 14%.

My goal is to get the SAS system to function and provide extra boost to a throttle kicked set up. This does two things..

SAS keeps shaft speed up, and to counter surge from the back pressure on the intake side, I will bleed some of it through the motor.

Im part way there. So far using parts that are pretty close in function to OEM, and using only a couple extra resistors and speaker wire for my map transitions.
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 11:08 PM   #47
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

heat and pressure

The heat is radiant and my pressure rating is upwards of 10,000 psi in my weakest fitting. Thats the plus side of hydraulic fittings. Good ratings and moderate to good heat resist. Something to consider is my SAS system was most likely off during my throttle kick test. this is because I have not established control from the ECU quite yet and its operating like a blow off valve in to the exhaust manifold.

The reason I need to have a throttle kick is to relieve some of the back pressure on the intake tract to counter surge, essentially raising the surge line for that area of operating. This means higher shaft speed and better boost recovery in my mind. Over spinning a stock framed journal bearing turbo is the last of my concern.. If my hta 71 bites the dust Ill look for a stock frame turbo and enjoy

I know this goes back from the idea of fresh air etc .. but Im gonna do what works and name it later!
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 12:12 PM   #48
Bansheeboy11
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 182415
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New York
Vehicle:
1999 RS
Aspen White

Default

Is anyone familiar with the old evo ecu's? Like what parameters it looks for before actuating the solenoid? I wonder if its simple enough to code something for our ecu 's so we can have a simple system that's not gonna eat my exhaust alive.
Bansheeboy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 05:02 PM   #49
Dubstar112
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143149
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Now in Evo-land
Vehicle:
2006 Evo IX RS
used to be 07 wrx 6speed

Default

How old? evo 6-9 ecu basically runs the SAS system identical.

RPM threshold, speed, temperature

then theres a duration in which these are active and then a delay parameter for fuel and air injection.. followed by injection times.
Dubstar112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 02:58 AM   #50
tunermt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 158767
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: az, mt, seoul, bangkok
Default

Dubstar112 are you still planning to use a solenoid and vacuum canister for better control of the sas valve?
tunermt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.