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Old 01-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #2951
flyboy1100
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Well, to be accurate, the issues with the MK6 TDI (with the 2.0L common-rail engine) are unique to the MK6, and were not inherited from the 1.8.

Part of the challenge came from the switch to Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), which stripped much of the lubricating qualities from the fuel. The High Pressure Fuel Pump relies on the fuel for lubrication, but the quality of our diesel here in the USA is sketchy and inconsistent, so many of these cars are grenading their fuel pumps. For the first year or two, VW was blaming the customer of accidentally putting gas in the car (gas has no lubricating qualities at all), but eventually this was proven largely false. Instead of putting better fuel pumps in the car, VW continues to simply replace them whenever they fail, along with the fuel injectors, fuel lines, fuel tank, and so on, to the tune of an $8k job. Why so many parts? Because when the fuel pump fails, it sends shards of metal throughout the fuel system, ruining everything.

Many MK6 TDI customers are also complaining of intercooler freezing problems. If you drive the car in the right (or wrong?) conditions (temps around freezing; high humidity; a gibbous moon; etc.), ice forms in the intercooler. Then, if the temps rise while the car is parked (outdoor temps rise; you park in your heated garage; etc.), the ice melts into the bottom of the intercooler, rendering the car either difficult or impossible to start. If the engine hydrolocks, bent rods could result. In 2011, VW designed and released an intercooler kit which largely fixes cars that get towed to the dealership when they can't start. Has VW started building these improved intercoolers into the MK6 TDIs to avoid problems with new cars? No, the 2013 TDIs continue to roll off the assembly line with the crap intercooler, even though VW designed an improved part.

I'm not saying that the 1.8 TDIs didn't have problems. I'm just saying that the 1.8 TDIs didn't have these problems.

It's so nice to get into my Impreza and not have to make the sign of the cross on my chest before turning the key.
i was thinking the 1.9 as well, it also had issues.

the 1.8 was pretty bulletproof in comparison
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:59 PM   #2952
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This also has a CVT and we both are heavy...
Both you and the CVT tranny are heavy? I'm assuming that you would NEVER say that your wife is heavy....

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Old 01-16-2013, 04:03 PM   #2953
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Originally Posted by Porky7 View Post
Here is what I am averaging using Fuelly. http://www.fuelly.com/driver/Porky7mm if anyone is interested. We mainly do highway as we live 12 miles from a grocery store here. This is since new in the spring, and all tanks are in there, even some that are partial fill ups I forgot to put as such... This also has a CVT and we both are heavy...
Dang Porky! 128MPG is awesome! J/K

You live in a cold-ish place too. Nice numbers.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:58 PM   #2954
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What I'd also like to know is, "Describe the other 20% of your driving that isn't on the highway."

This raises an interesting point. Because of the way the EPA sticker on our cars list "City" and "Highway" MPG estimates, people tend to lump their mileage into these two categories. But in reality, there's a spectrum that spans between "city" and "highway".

For example, I would say that 60% to 80% of my driving is truly "highway" where I can get up to 60 MPH, and then set my cruise control and drive for an extended period of time with little gas/brake intervention. The other 20% to 40% of my driving is a mix of typical suburban driving, with a stop sign or traffic light every half mile or so, and some nasty rush-hour traffic jam traffic where I'm creeping for a mile or two until I get past the accident on the shoulder of the road that's causing the delay.

It would be interesting to know (and can probably be determined by reading the EPA description of their testing procedure) how the EPA defines "city". Is my suburban driving considered "city"? Is my traffic jam driving "city"? Or is "city" something in between?

A similar question could then be asked of VWGTI's driving conditions. Is the 20% of his driving that isn't highway more like my suburban driving conditions, or is it more like my traffic jam driving conditions? Judging from the way he gave up a GTI that he liked so that he could have an auto tranny car, I'm guessing that his 20% is more like my traffic jam driving conditions; my suburban driving conditions aren't annoying enough to make a driving enthusiast give up his clutch.


I'm going to assume a couple of things, and invite others to correct me if I'm wrong:
  • The EPA's definition of "city" isn't as severe as bumper-to-bumper traffic jam driving.
  • VWGTI's non-highway driving is more like traffic jam driving, and is therefore more severe than what the EPA defines as "city" driving.
And if these assumptions are correct, then they explain why VWGTI can't hit the EPA's estimates. I think 20% of his driving is more severe than the EPA's city fuel economy test.
The other is exactly as you described. Suburban City Traffic... with the occasional bumper to bumper for couple of miles. As I stated.. done the same commute for years in my other cars.. very consistent. Not to beat a dead horse.. this car does not meet the advertised MPG's - it really is that simple, and I think most know it and just accept it. I drive very conservatively in this car. VERY
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #2955
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"Occasional bumper to bumper for a couple of miles" was enough to make you want to go with a car that doesn't have a clutch?

My question has nothing to do with your MPG concerns. I just know that I'm enthusiastic (to the point of being fanatical) about driving a car with a clutch (I wouldn't buy a car any other way). Since you came from a GTI, I would assume that you feel similarly. So I'm surprised that your heavy traffic situation was severe enough to make you select a car that doesn't allow you to row your own gears. But I guess you've said that you have another "fun" car to drive, so I guess that explains it.

My occasional bumper-to-bumper creeping until I get past a traffic accident is nowhere near annoying enough to make me give up my clutch.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:19 PM   #2956
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The other is exactly as you described. Suburban City Traffic... with the occasional bumper to bumper for couple of miles. As I stated.. done the same commute for years in my other cars.. very consistent. Not to beat a dead horse.. this car does not meet the advertised MPG's - it really is that simple, and I think most know it and just accept it. I drive very conservatively in this car. VERY
Ok, I think you mean this car does not meet the advertised MPG's for you on your commute, because you can look back 6 posts and see someone with a CVT who is getting average Combined MPG's of 33.9 (including engine break in), which is actually exceeding the EPA number printed on your (and his) Window Sticker.

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/Porky7mm

It is important to note that some people are getting better mileage that others, and the type of drive that yields higher and lower MPG's, but it is also important to realize that you and your experience are not universal, so saying the car does not meet the advertised MPG's for anyone is demonstrably false.

By the way, his car (a CVT) is exceeding the EPA numbers, my car (5 speed) is only meeting the projected Combined MPG number (currently 27.89, dropping a bit since I put snow tires on and will climb again in the spring). That's to debunk the whole CVT vs 5 speed myth that keeps getting promoted here.

Last edited by Zeeper; 01-16-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:33 PM   #2957
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"Occasional bumper to bumper for a couple of miles" was enough to make you want to go with a car that doesn't have a clutch?

My question has nothing to do with your MPG concerns. I just know that I'm enthusiastic (to the point of being fanatical) about driving a car with a clutch (I wouldn't buy a car any other way). Since you came from a GTI, I would assume that you feel similarly. So I'm surprised that your heavy traffic situation was severe enough to make you select a car that doesn't allow you to row your own gears. But I guess you've said that you have another "fun" car to drive, so I guess that explains it.

My occasional bumper-to-bumper creeping until I get past a traffic accident is nowhere near annoying enough to make me give up my clutch.
I understand your enthusiasm for driving a manual. I do love driving a manual.. that is why I did not buy the DSG. But as a DD , Yes.. my commute is annoying enough that driving a manual can become frustrating... and yes... I do have a Boss 302 to take out and blast through the gearz. I don't know if you have another car.. but I had an a/t DD which was great for commuting.. The GTI was never purchased for that purpose. And since my DD was totalled, and the GTI warranty was about to expire all factored into my decision to purchase the impreza.

Bye the way.. my last tank was at least 85% highway and just filled up... Hand Calculated again was 27.5MPG 342 miles / 12.402 gallons. Cmon... that is the city mpg for this car.. I know how I drive and I have been doing same commute for years. My MPG's should easily be 30+ You can ask all the questions you want ie speed bumper to bumper, how many stop signs I stop at etc.. but the fact remains that MY car does not achieve the advertised MPG's. So I have a question? How am I wrong? I think I have provided enough evidence... ????
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:57 PM   #2958
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Ok, I think you mean this car does not meet the advertised MPG's for you on your commute, because you can look back 6 posts and see someone with a CVT who is getting average Combined MPG's of 33.9 (including engine break in), which is actually exceeding the EPA number printed on your (and his) Window Sticker.

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/Porky7mm

It is important to note that some people are getting better mileage that others, and the type of drive that yields higher and lower MPG's, but it is also important to realize that you and your experience are not universal, so saying the car does not meet the advertised MPG's for anyone is demonstrably false.

By the way, his car (a CVT) is exceeding the EPA numbers, my car (5 speed) is only meeting the projected Combined MPG number (currently 27.89, dropping a bit since I put snow tires on and will climb again in the spring). That's to debunk the whole CVT vs 5 speed myth that keeps getting promoted here.
Really??? Cant speak for Porky.. but he lives 12 miles from a Grocery store, just a guess. but thinking he may be on the far left or right of the bell curve... and the AVG is inflated due to his 128mpg skint... C'Mon and yes.. AS OTHERS HAVE STATED....YOU DONT HAVE A CVT!!!! So dont comment on the CVT MPG's...OMG. I will give you my car.. you can drive it however you want and you will not achieve the advertised MPG's. I guarantee it!!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:09 PM   #2959
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Really??? Cant speak for Porky.. but he lives 12 miles from a Grocery store, just a guess. but thinking he may be on the far left or right of the bell curve... and the AVG is inflated due to his 128mpg skint... C'Mon and yes.. AS OTHERS HAVE STATED....YOU DONT HAVE A CVT!!!! So dont comment on the CVT MPG's...OMG. I will give you my car.. you can drive it however you want and you will not achieve the advertised MPG's. I guarantee it!!
Yes, there are two numbers out of wack there, drop them and look at the remaining ones, and it gives you a pretty reliable average (31.875 combined MPG for the last 10 entries not including the 128 and 8 mpg outliers).

No, I don't have a CVT. But when someone here with a CVT states they meet or exceed the EPA numbers you ignore them.

Some drivers are meeting or exceeding the EPA numbers. You are not one of them. If you feel cheated, sorry. The EPA numbers seem to be pretty reasonable for the car, overall on Fuelly the Combined Average is 28 or so. A 5 Speed is rated at 28 Combined, a CVT is rated at 30 Combined. The fuelly number has been climbing, not falling, as more data is accumulated.

Some types of driving will kill the MPG's for this car. So it is a buyer beware situation, if you live in the city and do short drives with a cold engine, or do lots of stop and go, or live in the wild west where you drive 70+ all the time, or you think the car is slow so you hammer the hell out of the accelerator, your mpg's will not approach the EPA estimates.

I only drive on the highway occasionally, usually about 65mph, and do a lot of winding hilly country roads at about 50mph, with stops. I hit the Combined with my drive.

It is accurate to say you don't achieve the EPA numbers and you think you should. It is inaccurate to suggest the EPA numbers for the car cannot be achieved.

I can comment on the CVT's without owning one, because I can look at the posts of CVT users, and the data of CVT owners on Fuelly, and the EPA numbers for the CVT, and speak to the data that is there that anyone can compare and discuss.

And there is the first amendment of blogs, also.

I don't need your car, thanks for the generous offer. I will take the Boss 302 out for a spin though, maybe this summer, if the offer still stands...

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Old 01-16-2013, 07:12 PM   #2960
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Have you guys put your seasonal air in?




John

I know, it's not funny.......(hanging my head in shame)
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:54 PM   #2961
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Yes, there are two numbers out of wack there, drop them and look at the remaining ones, and it gives you a pretty reliable average (31.875 combined MPG for the last 10 entries not including the 128 and 8 mpg outliers).

No, I don't have a CVT. But when someone here with a CVT states they meet or exceed the EPA numbers you ignore them.

Some drivers are meeting or exceeding the EPA numbers. You are not one of them. If you feel cheated, sorry. The EPA numbers seem to be pretty reasonable for the car, overall on Fuelly the Combined Average is 28 or so. A 5 Speed is rated at 28 Combined, a CVT is rated at 30 Combined. The fuelly number has been climbing, not falling, as more data is accumulated.

Some types of driving will kill the MPG's for this car. So it is a buyer beware situation, if you live in the city and do short drives with a cold engine, or do lots of stop and go, or live in the wild west where you drive 70+ all the time, or you think the car is slow so you hammer the hell out of the accelerator, your mpg's will not approach the EPA estimates.

I only drive on the highway occasionally, usually about 65mph, and do a lot of winding hilly country roads at about 50mph, with stops. I hit the Combined with my drive.

It is accurate to say you don't achieve the EPA numbers and you think you should. It is inaccurate to suggest the EPA numbers for the car cannot be achieved.

I can comment on the CVT's without owning one, because I can look at the posts of CVT users, and the data of CVT owners on Fuelly, and the EPA numbers for the CVT, and speak to the data that is there that anyone can compare and discuss.

And there is the first amendment of blogs, also.

I don't need your car, thanks for the generous offer. I will take the Boss 302 out for a spin though, maybe this summer, if the offer still stands...
Listen.. You love your car and you are happy with your MPG's I get it... I have not ignored any CVT drivers claims.. Many are not hand calc and Porky sounds like he lives in a very rural area, hence the bell curve.. not what most drivers deal with.

Whatever.. All I know is what my car should be achieving and it is not.. You just stated.. you drive on the highway occasionly... and alot of winding hilly roads,, well i dont, flat Highway mostly and my car is only hitting the City MPG claims.. and the CVT is rated higher.. can you explain why? I dont feel cheated I have been cheated.. Why else would I spend time explaining that, as many others have also. I dont get your point. My point is simple.. MY car does not meet the advertised MPG's, and Many others do not as well. I dont have any numbers.. but start a poll and ask how many Impreza owners feel their cars are hitting the advertised MPG's. Bet you will get alot of NO, BUT???

And for the Boss.. The Boss is an amazing car.. Best Mustang ever produced .. Shelby owners with 600+ HP have traded in there cars for a Boss. Perfectly Balanced. If you ever do have the chance.. I highly recomend driving one... You def won't care about MPG's
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:28 PM   #2962
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Certain drivers of CVT's are getting crappy mileage because it's SO easy to accelerate faster than in a 5-spd, and not feel it.

The CVT has a constant push in your back, and accel rates are not as obvious as you get when shifting a manual.

Put a 5-spd and CVT side-by-side, and the CVT would jump way out in front, with both drivers told to accelerate at a medium rate.

If those CVT owners used the paddle mode, their mileage would jump up.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:55 PM   #2963
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SubiTWO, I don't know how what you say can be true, since the 0 to 60 times with the 5-speed are approximately 1 sec faster than with the CVT. Or are you just talking about perception?
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:22 PM   #2964
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SubiTWO, I don't know how what you say can be true, since the 0 to 60 times with the 5-speed are approximately 1 sec faster than with the CVT. Or are you just talking about perception?
he is assuming that the two drivers are not going WOT and a normal acceleration. i know what he means. my 300 horse power s2000 that weighed about 2600-2700 pounds could be out accelerated at a stop light by a mini-van. of course if i put my foot down to 8700 rpms then i would easily fly by the mini-van. but under normal acceleration, i could be easily passed by any car. the cvt could "hold gears" all the way to 40 mph or i guess hold the rpm til 40 mph. while th manual would have to shift to keep up. yes the manual would win if he floored it, but under normal acceleration i can see the cvt would win.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:59 PM   #2965
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It sounds like you're describing throttle tip-in differences between the CVT and the manual, but I'm not sure. I guess without having driven the CVT, I can't relate.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:46 PM   #2966
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Listen.. You love your car and you are happy with your MPG's I get it... I have not ignored any CVT drivers claims.. Many are not hand calc and Porky sounds like he lives in a very rural area, hence the bell curve.. not what most drivers deal with.

Whatever.. All I know is what my car should be achieving and it is not.. You just stated.. you drive on the highway occasionly... and alot of winding hilly roads,, well i dont, flat Highway mostly and my car is only hitting the City MPG claims.. and the CVT is rated higher.. can you explain why? I dont feel cheated I have been cheated.. Why else would I spend time explaining that, as many others have also. I dont get your point. My point is simple.. MY car does not meet the advertised MPG's, and Many others do not as well. I dont have any numbers.. but start a poll and ask how many Impreza owners feel their cars are hitting the advertised MPG's. Bet you will get alot of NO, BUT???

And for the Boss.. The Boss is an amazing car.. Best Mustang ever produced .. Shelby owners with 600+ HP have traded in there cars for a Boss. Perfectly Balanced. If you ever do have the chance.. I highly recomend driving one... You def won't care about MPG's
in my buick if i even drove 10-15% city my overall mpg for the tank sucks, always has. if i did pure highway (gas station w/in 1/4mi of interstate, get on interstate 75mph, get off for gas w/in 1/4 mile again it got awesome mpg) but any city it seems and the overall mpg just tanks.

perhaps the CVT is the same way.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:58 PM   #2967
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Yes. And I think I have better perspective on this than you, because my previous car was a 2010 Golf TDI, which has many similarities to the GTI.
Just another idiot? Does not have a cvt, but knows all about them...
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:04 AM   #2968
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
It is important to note that some people are getting better mileage that others, and the type of drive that yields higher and lower MPG's, but it is also important to realize that you and your experience are not universal, so saying the car does not meet the advertised MPG's for anyone is demonstrably false.

Just another Zeeper Straw Man - I don't recall him saying the car "does not meet advertised mpg's for anyone".

As you continue to ignore unless it favors your doltish pseudoargument, anyone can get the advertised mpg's, if only they drive slowly enough.

The problem is, for most of us to drive that slowly is dangerous due to probable rear end collisions from other inattentive drivers who are just driving along smelling the roses (sound familiar Zeep?)

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Old 01-17-2013, 12:06 AM   #2969
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in my buick "blah blah blah"...

perhaps the CVT is the same way.
And "perhaps" there is a teapot orbiting Pluto...
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:24 AM   #2970
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Just another idiot? Does not have a cvt, but knows all about them...
I wasn't claiming to know all about CVTs. I was claiming to understand why VWGTI misses his GTI.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:41 AM   #2971
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I wasn't claiming to know all about CVTs. I was claiming to understand why VWGTI misses his GTI.
VWGTI was talking about how he was disappointed with his CVT Impreza, and you said it doesn't have anything to do with the mpg of the CVT. Sorry, but it does, and you don't have one.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:04 AM   #2972
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VWGTI was talking about how he was disappointed with his CVT Impreza, and you said it doesn't have anything to do with the mpg of the CVT. Sorry, but it does, and you don't have one.
That's true, I don't have a CVT, and have never driven one.

It sounds like you and VWGTI (and 79, and others) are very unhappy with your purchases. I'm sorry the Impreza didn't work out for you guys. I know what it's like to be unhappy with a major purchase that you had high hopes for.

I suggest selling your cars sooner rather than later, to avoid additional depreciation. That's what I did with my VW TDI that I didn't trust, and it worked out well. I sold it myself rather than trading it in (it's easier than you might think), which allowed me to keep $5500 that I would have lost had I traded it into the Subaru dealership. I used Craigslist, which was a free ad.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:56 PM   #2973
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Bottom line is that there are those that are unhappy that the mpg's aren't living up to expectations. I sincerely believe there must be something to it since this thread has 119 pages and how many posts at this point. Everyone knows there are variables, and I think that certainly some, if not most, are trying to take that into account. There are a lot of gear heads here. A friend of mine recently traded her old Forester for a 2013 Impreza Sport. She is unhappy as well with the fuel economy, but loves the car. So here I am, happy with mine making its numbers and hers not. When we have a chance for a head to head comparo it will be interesting to see what happens and I'll let everyone know. Her daily drive does differ from mine though, so we can't use that. As stated, I am happy with my return. Better than the WRX and cheaper fuel. the '13 gets as advertised. Right now in Jans case, she made a lateral move on the fuel board and only gained a new car. She was hoping for it to be better.

As I have pondered before, what is going on with the engine management on a PZEV vehicle that may be contributing to this? I can safely say that my '03 WRX was pretty consistent throughout the year except for the warm up time in winter.

It almost sounds like if the window sticker had said 23 city and 36 highway, this thread would not exsist.

John
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:03 PM   #2974
foghelmut
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More torque would serve the engine well to achieve better city numbers if most drivers are really flogging the engine to achieve desired acceleration (See Top Gear's M3 vs Prius). However, I'm not sure how that would effect the highway mileage. I would suggest driving with a lighter foot.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:30 PM   #2975
Zeeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzi 1 View Post
It almost sounds like if the window sticker had said 23 city and 36 highway, this thread would not exsist.

John
In 2012 the Window Sticker kinda said exactly that, and this thread is still here.

CVT's showed a slightly higher 'Expected Range for most drivers', but the lowest City number of that range was lower than that 23 you just put out there.

The 2012 window sticker also shows a higher and lower range for Highway.

The Combined MPG is identical between a 2012 and 2013 Window Sticker for cars with the same transmission (makes sense), and the same whether itis PZEV or not (I think).

Of course the EPA (not Subaru) decides what goes on the label, and they simplified the window stickers for 2013 to emphasize Combined MPG's over the City/Highway numbers, and dropped the 'expected range' language, but the car is essentially unchanged from 2012-2013 except now all Imprezas are PZEV's, like my 2012.


Last edited by Zeeper; 01-17-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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