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Old 01-19-2013, 08:57 PM   #5451
WRXt4cy
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Since many of you guys here are running the 02-04 WRX chassis and with E85, I want to ask what you guys use for fuel filters. I assume most of you have kept the under the hood type filter from the 02 - 04 WRX right? Are you running an OEM filter, Wix, Duralast or some other brand?

I want to make sure I use something that should work well with E85.

Thanks!
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:04 PM   #5452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
AVCS helps and decent gas does not hurt, I ran my 205 at +20 of timing on e85 without issue but not on 91. It is actually a really good way to get torque from a small motor. Rather than go hotter with a leaner mixture you increase pressure with timing and throw a ton of fuel at it to keep things cool.
The EJ205 stock tuning strategy is similar, but it "only" advances to ~15 degrees at full boost on the stock map... and that's only @ 13.5 psi. 2.5L is the same story, AVCS and stock map is still <20 degrees at boost threshold.

There's a more fundamental change here. You don't stave off det from an extra *10+ degrees of ignition advance* via a different tuning strategy. That might work for 2 or 3 degrees, but not 10 or 12. The design of the engine is dictating where the timing wants to be. My speculation is that this is largely due to the big difference in quench height. EJ205, 255 and 257 have about .3 mm piston to deck, where the 207 is 1.4 mm. I knew quench would make a difference, I'm just a little surprised it's this large a difference.

Last edited by Concillian; 01-19-2013 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:56 PM   #5453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
AVCS helps and decent gas does not hurt, I ran my 205 at +20 of timing on e85 without issue but not on 91. It is actually a really good way to get torque from a small motor. Rather than go hotter with a leaner mixture you increase pressure with timing and throw a ton of fuel at it to keep things cool.
Yes, this is what I'm doing and this is timing based tuning.
Prodrive did this too with their stages.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:01 AM   #5454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
There's a more fundamental change here. The design of the engine is dictating where the timing wants to be. My speculation is that this is largely due to the big difference in quench height. EJ205, 255 and 257 have about .3 mm piston to deck, where the 207 is 1.4 mm. I knew quench would make a difference, I'm just a little surprised it's this large a difference.
You are correct. Mainly, timing value that can be run is engine design parameters dependent.
Therefore the amount of timing the 207 can run cannot be judged by how much either the 205 or the 255/257 can run.

Furthermore, the JDM 257 does not run timing like the JDM 207.

I feel that a lot of people got their 207 tuned "safely" by good tuners, but tuners used with 205/255/257, tuners that felt they need to take out a lot of timing out of the "freaky" 207, that runs timing "only due to the amazing JDM octane"....
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:15 AM   #5455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
The EJ205 stock tuning strategy is similar, but it "only" advances to ~15 degrees at full boost on the stock map... and that's only @ 13.5 psi. 2.5L is the same story, AVCS and stock map is still <20 degrees at boost threshold.

There's a more fundamental change here. You don't stave off det from an extra *10+ degrees of ignition advance* via a different tuning strategy. That might work for 2 or 3 degrees, but not 10 or 12. The design of the engine is dictating where the timing wants to be. My speculation is that this is largely due to the big difference in quench height. EJ205, 255 and 257 have about .3 mm piston to deck, where the 207 is 1.4 mm. I knew quench would make a difference, I'm just a little surprised it's this large a difference.

it is totally the design of the engine. But there is also the disconnect between what the engine wants and what people "expect" an engine to need. I have heard it more than once from 4g63 guys about how we run too much timing, and how they only need 10-15.

Based on your experience the 207 is running a crapload of timing, but it is running what the engineers felt was safe + a factor of safety. There are a few "safe" maps on romraider for the 207 that people have shared, some are ~5 degrees lower than I run on a daily basis and very similar to 205 maps at peak torque. The SD rom flashes the CEL when it sees knock so I know that it is happy and I never see any knock.

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 01-20-2013 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:15 AM   #5456
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I'm getting ready to swap a ej207&6MT into my '06 2.5i wagon and had some questions, mainly wiring.

Let me see if I understand this right..
I don't want to use the JDM/STI harness because my headlights and other things won't connect? So I should find a WRX full wire harness instead (which I did and I'm ready to pick up an '04 sedan full harness).

How will the STI steering wheel sensor and G sensor (under the ebrake) work with a WRX harness? I understand these are two very important parts of how the dccd works.

Also, will I require the STI ABS pump? (Going brembos)

Sorry for all the questions and thanks
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:23 AM   #5457
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You will not be able to get the factory DCCD harness to work unless you have a complete STi harness. I mean I'm sure someone could do it, but it's one of those things... if you're asking us, you can't do it. My advice on the DCCD? Buy a DCCDPro contoller and install that instead for DCCD control. It's an excellent stand-alone system.

Overall, you are proposing a VERY difficult swap. The 2004 Sedan harness will not easily swap into the 2006 wagon body. Those two cars are very different in many aspects.

You have a 32bit car, the harness you mentioned is from a 16bit car. There are a lot of differences. Sensors, climate control, etc, etc.

I think you need to do A LOT more thinking on if this is really what you want to do. My advice? Sell your 2.5i for an older WRX and then do the swap. Much easier.

If you're going to continue with this, call up some of the resident expert wire harness mergers like iwire and have them merge your 2006 harness with the 2004 WRX harness and have them add AVCS while they are at it. This will cost you a bit, but its 100% worth it.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:16 AM   #5458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
By not liking it are you talking reduced IAM? These ECUs are all tuned aggressively and will push right up against the knock threshold of the fuel they run. Realistically that is the only way to get peak performance out of a street car and all modern vehicles do it. Knock is inevitable and not the worst thing until you get to the power levels where the knock event breaks the gas film barrier in the cylinder and interacts with the metal where it can cause pitting.

A stock USDM STI for example will likely drop IAM on a hot day running 91. And realistically it only takes a few degrees of timing to make the JDM motor safe on 91-93 oct gas.
If it's bad enough it will drop IAM, most likely is the ignition and fuel learning tables will have large corrections applied.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:03 AM   #5459
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i posted about 70 pages ago about this. when first tuning my car i took timing out since ppl said it had too much timing. well after putting more than 20 hours into my tune over the summer and making small changes i have the timing pretty high for what i would consider a 93 octane car to run. but as stated the 207 has a different configuration for combustion and thus can run more timing. this includes nearly all parts of the curve. i run about 16 at peak torque to 27 at 8k rpms. cruising i run around 46* adv with heavy amounts of avcs. if cruising down the highway my egt temps stay steady with zero knock anywere. its pretty hilly in wisconsins northwoods and for a 1.5 hour drive north with cruise control on it wont knock. keep in mind all this i posted is from my own logging so dont just assume your car will take timing on your fuel. just pointing out the design favors more timing
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:12 AM   #5460
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Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
You will not be able to get the factory DCCD harness to work unless you have a complete STi harness. I mean I'm sure someone could do it, but it's one of those things... if you're asking us, you can't do it. My advice on the DCCD? Buy a DCCDPro contoller and install that instead for DCCD control. It's an excellent stand-alone system.

Overall, you are proposing a VERY difficult swap. The 2004 Sedan harness will not easily swap into the 2006 wagon body. Those two cars are very different in many aspects.

You have a 32bit car, the harness you mentioned is from a 16bit car. There are a lot of differences. Sensors, climate control, etc, etc.

I think you need to do A LOT more thinking on if this is really what you want to do. My advice? Sell your 2.5i for an older WRX and then do the swap. Much easier.

If you're going to continue with this, call up some of the resident expert wire harness mergers like iwire and have them merge your 2006 harness with the 2004 WRX harness and have them add AVCS while they are at it. This will cost you a bit, but its 100% worth it.
I considered selling my car but a saabaru is hard to come by, especially an aero in Canada and they don't come cheap. If the opportunity arises, I would go straight to an aero to save myself the headache for sure. I already talked to iWire and I'd be sending my wireharness to them.

In terms of sending them another wire harness , I'm able to get a 04 sedan WRX harness. But it seems like your saying I jeed the 05/06 harness then?

Last edited by 2JZ; 01-20-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:24 AM   #5461
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Really, this isn't the best thread for this. I think you need to research a bit more 02-05 are 16-bit. The 06-07 are 32-bit. All bets are off if you are sending it to iwire. They can merge just about anything.

That said, the DCCD is still going to be more trouble than its worth. Definitely just go aftermarket controller with that.

Also, does your Saab have auto climate control? If so, you will lose that when you jump backwards to the 16 bit ecu.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:34 AM   #5462
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Anyone have any insight on how to pop out the pins for the F61 connector? I found some instructions on how to pop out the ECU pins, but it doesn't seem there is a little hole under the pins to stick a needle in with this connector. I am using this diagram and the accompanying instructions. Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Not sure if there is a "correct way" to depin the pins (ECU and Engine harness-wise). But I finally practiced enough to get them out easy. The engine harnesses (both the black and the grey harness) are much easier to visualize and depin. Look into my EJ207 into Bugeye thread in the Subaru Conversion section. This is what it'll look like once you pop off the white pin lock on the black harness plug, The grey plug is essentially the same, well the lock is orange, not white :


The ECU pin is a PITA and took alot of practice and mangling of the plastic to finally get out. Here is what I used:

A set of precision screwdriver. I got this from Radioshack, but all you need is the 1.0mm flathead. I've seen 0.8mm, but that was way too thin to sustain any pressure to be useful.


Look at the bottom of the ECU connector, and you'll see the lock. Use a screwdriver to pry it up, to unlock the bank of pins


Lock pryed up:


Using the 1.0mm screwdriver, slide it into the top (the larger of the two) slot, sliding the tip along the top of the ECU pin until you feel the screwdriver cannot go any further. That resistance is where the internal plastic tab keeps the pin in place.


This picture shows what I'm talking about. Visualize that the pin is still in the connector. You slide it along the top, reach the plastic tab and "push" the screwdrive downward to apply pressure on the plastic tab "upward" so you can pull the pin out. This is where that third hand comes in handy, whether it be a real third hand, a clamp, anything that will hold the ECU connector steady. Because while you're trying to apply pressure to the tab inside the connector, you're also pulling on the wire to pull it out. This takes some practice, but you'll get it


Hope this helps. My wife took the pics, except the first picture, but her third hand came in "handy" taking the rest of the pics
-Jeff

Last edited by efiniluvr; 01-20-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:26 PM   #5463
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What's the difference between a ej207 v8 throttle body and under the intake manifold wiring harness than a ej205's?
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:50 PM   #5464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
i posted about 70 pages ago about this. when first tuning my car i took timing out since ppl said it had too much timing. well after putting more than 20 hours into my tune over the summer and making small changes i have the timing pretty high for what i would consider a 93 octane car to run. but as stated the 207 has a different configuration for combustion and thus can run more timing. this includes nearly all parts of the curve. i run about 16 at peak torque to 27 at 8k rpms. cruising i run around 46* adv with heavy amounts of avcs. if cruising down the highway my egt temps stay steady with zero knock anywere. its pretty hilly in wisconsins northwoods and for a 1.5 hour drive north with cruise control on it wont knock. keep in mind all this i posted is from my own logging so dont just assume your car will take timing on your fuel. just pointing out the design favors more timing

That sounds about right timing wise, you could even pry push more depending at how much boost you are running at peak torque and high RPM.

Those are a little under the timing numbers I would shoot for running 20Psi peak tapering off to ~17psi at high RPM, on 91
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:32 PM   #5465
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u may be right now looking at my timing maps. i check learning view once a week or so but havnt not logged in a few months. i know it was right were my 02 wrx was at with e85 and a td04. more like 18-30 it looks like. i targer 24 psi tapering to 17ish as well. really hits hard in that low end 3k-4500rpm range spiking the boost.

i have not been on in a while but i got a few avcs harness's made up over the break for anyone who needs one!
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:26 PM   #5466
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Do you guys want to start a thread where we would compare notes about 207 hi timing maps? I am running some timing too...
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:28 PM   #5467
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Do you guys want to start a thread where we would compare notes about 207 hi timing maps? I am running some timing too...

That's a fantastic idea Vlad - ill also chime in with my thoughts on that thread

Mick
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:04 PM   #5468
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So the Jdm motors need the timing belt done every 62k and USDM every 100k?
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:10 PM   #5469
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So the Jdm motors need the timing belt done every 62k and USDM every 100k?
Bingo
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:13 PM   #5470
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That's lame any clue why?
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:15 PM   #5471
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Stiffer belt wears out faster.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:23 PM   #5472
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Stiffer belt wears out faster.
So say I go with a gates racing belt kit. Should it be changed in 62k or should it be good till 100k
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:29 PM   #5473
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So say I go with a gates racing belt kit. Should it be changed in 62k
That.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:35 PM   #5474
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That.
Thanks bud. 69k on mine. Gotta get it done soon
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:33 PM   #5475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efiniluvr View Post
Not sure if there is a "correct way" to depin the pins (ECU and Engine harness-wise). But I finally practiced enough to get them out easy. The engine harnesses (both the black and the grey harness) are much easier to visualize and depin. Look into my EJ207 into Bugeye thread in the Subaru Conversion section. This is what it'll look like once you pop off the white pin lock on the black harness plug, The grey plug is essentially the same, well the lock is orange, not white :


The ECU pin is a PITA and took alot of practice and mangling of the plastic to finally get out. Here is what I used:

A set of precision screwdriver. I got this from Radioshack, but all you need is the 1.0mm flathead. I've seen 0.8mm, but that was way too thin to sustain any pressure to be useful.

Look at the bottom of the ECU connector, and you'll see the lock. Use a screwdriver to pry it up, to unlock the bank of pins

Lock pryed up:

Using the 1.0mm screwdriver, slide it into the top (the larger of the two) slot, sliding the tip along the top of the ECU pin until you feel the screwdriver cannot go any further. That resistance is where the internal plastic tab keeps the pin in place.

This picture shows what I'm talking about. Visualize that the pin is still in the connector. You slide it along the top, reach the plastic tab and "push" the screwdrive downward to apply pressure on the plastic tab "upward" so you can pull the pin out. This is where that third hand comes in handy, whether it be a real third hand, a clamp, anything that will hold the ECU connector steady. Because while you're trying to apply pressure to the tab inside the connector, you're also pulling on the wire to pull it out. This takes some practice, but you'll get it

Hope this helps. My wife took the pics, except the first picture, but her third hand came in "handy" taking the rest of the pics
-Jeff
Can't thank you enough for the insight and pictures!
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