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Old 01-30-2013, 08:27 AM   #26
SCRAPPYDO
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you will be waiting for a LOOOOOOONG time my friend.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:55 PM   #27
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Pretty sweet, still waiting on an electric compact RWD 4dr hatch that can get to 60 in 6sec with a 300mile range, oh wait I have to be able to afford it too.

Seriously though, Tesla's are Hawt
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:59 PM   #28
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you will be waiting for a LOOOOOOONG time my friend.
Three years tops.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:00 PM   #29
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I would take that bet...
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:17 PM   #30
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I would take that bet...
Yeah that's 5 years out at least. That is if the Model S does well past the first two production years.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:21 AM   #31
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Second generation car, it will be in the $30k price range, 250-300hp, 200+ mi range, 2016.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:40 AM   #32
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Second generation car, it will be in the $30k price range, 250-300hp, 200+ mi range, 2016.
Don't tease me.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:33 PM   #33
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We should start a betting pool on stats.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:54 AM   #34
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:55 AM   #35
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I like the idea of being able to use the batteries as a KERS system and have lots of torque available. It's something that I've been hoping would be implemented since the early release of hybrids.

However, those videos are a little deceiving, that modded Viper is running about a second behind what a car with similar mods would.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:49 AM   #36
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Well the S with 300 mile range is 85-90 thousand before tax bribe money. And the only one that is capable of 12's is the top of the line performance which stickers 94900 bucks.

I would still pick a fossil fuel burner over this...
Cars with equivalent gas performance get ~15mpg. That would put my ~8 year gas cost at ~$39,000. Not including maintenance, oil changes, and of course the repair costs on such an expensive engine. Let's just take oil changes, about $2000 worth if done myself. All of a sudden $94900 doesn't seem so expensive anymore does it? If I included all the factors it would become even more competitive.

But hey, a lot of us just can't do math.... no need to be embarrassed. The obvious truth is quite opaque to most. The moon is made of cheese and horseless carriages are a fools dream along with human flight, see what happened to Icarus!
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:54 AM   #37
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I like the idea of being able to use the batteries as a KERS system and have lots of torque available. It's something that I've been hoping would be implemented since the early release of hybrids.

However, those videos are a little deceiving, that modded Viper is running about a second behind what a car with similar mods would.
Wait until people start modifying electric cars. That AC induction motor has way more left in it. Also, you can put 2 in it quite easily
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:43 AM   #38
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Wait until people start modifying electric cars. That AC induction motor has way more left in it. Also, you can put 2 in it quite easily
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:41 AM   #39
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Cars with equivalent gas performance get ~15mpg. That would put my ~8 year gas cost at ~$39,000. Not including maintenance, oil changes, and of course the repair costs on such an expensive engine. Let's just take oil changes, about $2000 worth if done myself. All of a sudden $94900 doesn't seem so expensive anymore does it? If I included all the factors it would become even more competitive.

But hey, a lot of us just can't do math.... no need to be embarrassed. The obvious truth is quite opaque to most. The moon is made of cheese and horseless carriages are a fools dream along with human flight, see what happened to Icarus!
Gee an M5 gets 22 mpg hwy. Did you overlook that on purpose just to attempt to prove a point. Or did you just quote city mileage to be tricky and try to pass that off as overall mileage. Shame integrity is the first thing you give up to try to make a point.

Also, guess what, running the heater does not kill your mileage and I could drive my M5 to california from florida without it taking a week or worrying about ending up on a flatbed

But don't be embarrassed, some people are just incapable of rational thought
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:57 PM   #40
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Here we go again.

As is often the case, the current truth lies between what both of you just said. But with the same kind of commitment to supporting the necessary infrastructure and R&D, all of the factors in favor of the ICE car begin to rapidly fade away. I could lay it out in numbers and details, but I think everyone here is smart enough to understand that on their own, whether they want to publicly admit it or not. Start with the oil subsidies we have in place, gas station network, 100 years of mass-scale tinkering and improving the ICE, etc, and go from there. Apply all that and more to electric car, and you have a clearly superior product on multiple levels. The only reason the ICE-powered car has any advantage at all is due to its technological and cultural entrenchment.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:26 PM   #41
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I never said EV cannot be made to not suck as a daily drivers. I just said that right now they are better served as second or third cars. Look at my many posts. How many times I have I said that EV only need two things to be viable.

1) an infrastructure similar to todays gas stations, and
2) ability to charge in 5 minutes to 95-100% capacity.

Get that under way and get the price down to where gas cars are today you would have a fleet of appliances ready to do good service to their owners for years to come.

What electrical vehicles could have been if we started 100 years ago developing them (we did by the way, they out numbered gas cars in the early days of cars) is not the subject at hand. I only argue against the merits of TODAYS EV as they are. What they could have been is totally irrelevant.

Society as we know it was built on petroleum. Be thankful for that. If we are in the waining years for oil, then so be it. But EV today are no match for the efficient gas powered cars in todays world in terms of price and convenience. The general public is not ready to embrace them. They do not want them. No amount of cheering for them will change that until the items 1 and 2 above are addressed. The early adopters will buy them, and it is good they have a product to purchase. Elon and GM and Ford and Nissan are very happy to have the early adopters, as they are making each of them money.

I do not mind the EV fans. But the instant they skew the results and ignore the faults then I feel obligated to call BS.

In the end, drive what you want to.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:49 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Gee an M5 gets 22 mpg hwy. Did you overlook that on purpose just to attempt to prove a point. Or did you just quote city mileage to be tricky and try to pass that off as overall mileage. Shame integrity is the first thing you give up to try to make a point.

Also, guess what, running the heater does not kill your mileage and I could drive my M5 to california from florida without it taking a week or worrying about ending up on a flatbed

But don't be embarrassed, some people are just incapable of rational thought
If you are getting 22mpg in your M5 then you bought the wrong car.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:58 PM   #43
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I never said EV cannot be made to not suck as a daily drivers. I just said that right now they are better served as second or third cars. Look at my many posts. How many times I have I said that EV only need two things to be viable.

1) an infrastructure similar to todays gas stations, and
2) ability to charge in 5 minutes to 95-100% capacity.

Get that under way and get the price down to where gas cars are today you would have a fleet of appliances ready to do good service to their owners for years to come.

What electrical vehicles could have been if we started 100 years ago developing them (we did by the way, they out numbered gas cars in the early days of cars) is not the subject at hand. I only argue against the merits of TODAYS EV as they are. What they could have been is totally irrelevant.

Society as we know it was built on petroleum. Be thankful for that. If we are in the waining years for oil, then so be it. But EV today are no match for the efficient gas powered cars in todays world in terms of price and convenience. The general public is not ready to embrace them. They do not want them. No amount of cheering for them will change that until the items 1 and 2 above are addressed. The early adopters will buy them, and it is good they have a product to purchase. Elon and GM and Ford and Nissan are very happy to have the early adopters, as they are making each of them money.

I do not mind the EV fans. But the instant they skew the results and ignore the faults then I feel obligated to call BS.

In the end, drive what you want to.
A lot of that isn't possible with today's technology. Interchangeable batteries would be the only viable alternative to instantaneous charging, and that will never happen.

If I'm going to have an electric, I'd much rather it be a hydrogen vehicle.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:56 PM   #44
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A lot of that isn't possible with today's technology. Interchangeable batteries would be the only viable alternative to instantaneous charging, and that will never happen.

If I'm going to have an electric, I'd much rather it be a hydrogen vehicle.
You are incorrect. We have batteries right now that you can charge in 5 minutes.

They are expensive. The infrastructure required is also prohibitive.


Quote:
Spain-based Opbrid Transporte Sostenible S.L. has introduced the Bůsbaar—an overhead, pantograph-based fast-charging station for buses. Based on technology from the European rail industry, and leveraging the rapid charge capability of nanotechnology Lithium Titanate (nLTO) technology batteries such as those from Altair Nano, the Bůsbaar is a high power (~250 kW) opportunity charging station that rapidly charges a bus at one or both ends of its route.

By fast charging these batteries for 5 or 6 minutes at each end of a bus route, a bus can run throughout the day on 100% electricity from the grid. This enables the upgrading of many hybrid-electric buses to use up to 100% electricity from the grid instead of diesel, Opbrid says. Opbrid calls such buses Rapid Charge Hybrids (RCH).
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:18 PM   #45
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A lot of that isn't possible with today's technology. Interchangeable batteries would be the only viable alternative to instantaneous charging, and that will never happen.
^^^^^^ It's stuff like this.

FYI The Tesla Model S platform was designed with a battery pack that _could_ be replaced in under 5 minutes. I think a few years down the line when there are 100k or so Model S and Model X cars on the road, there will be a battery lease and exchange program started.

Not to mention with 8-10% improvement in battery technology per year. Imagine driving an electric car with a 1000 mile capacity. At this point the idea of being inconvenienced to stop at a gas station will be laughable. Imagine stopping at a gas station to charge your smartphone.

I could go point by point on what all the other naysayers said, but it seems not worthwhile when information like this is pretty readily available. I mean 22 MPG in an M5? "efficient" gas engine?? I for real laughed out loud. Since when is 16% thermal efficiency "efficient?" Fundamental misunderstanding of the first law of thermodynamics here.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:16 AM   #46
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No sunshine, do not confuse what you consider efficient to what others consider efficient. You forget who you are talking to. I do not give a rats rear about gas mileage. Never have. So I am very willing to take 16% thermally efficiency any day if it comes wrapped in an M5 sound and feel. Your flaw is thinking others put efficiency on such a pedastal as you do. The common plebians may, but car enthusiasts probably do not.

I drove a hopped up 74 trans am all through college and it got 8 mpg, ON THE HWY! That was 5 years of fun.

Loved that car. MPG means exactly squat to me. Fun >>> MPG

Again, You make the assumption that everybody gets a hard on about great gas mileage. While many people do, lots of people just do not care one bit. To others the feel and sound of a great engine (M engines for one, AMG engines as well, and heck an STI boxer sounds great) are FAR more important to the driving experience versus saying ZOMG I have not gone to a gas station in a month! WOwzers! I am so cool My 1971 Datsun with triple Weber carbs on a straight 6 at 6000 rpm sounds glorious!!! Goose bump enducing sound. No EV can ever duplicate that.

The people that can afford a 100k Tesla S are not concerned about being able to afford gas. They want the image, the bragging rights. Meh, they are the same kind of people who buy unpractical exotic super cars. Which is fine. People who sweat mpg for affordability sake are generally not very well off, and a 100k dollar car is unobtanium.

You make a lot of decent points that IF THEY COME TRUE would be great. 1000 miles between charge. Yeah that would rock. When that happens and the car costs less than 100k dollars I will officially eat crow on this website. 8-10% improvement every year for commercially available batteries suitable for EV. I have my doubts about this. At least until there is not a market driving this kind of developement like there was in computer chip technology. But there is not since only a sliver of the people in this country can either A) afford an EV that offers the current limited range, and B) want an EV when the gas powered vehicle does everything they want and has an infrastructure to support it and is very affordable and reliable.

Look I get it. You get all hot and bothered about what EV might be. I can just imagine you getting all swoony over 1000 miles per charge. But from my seat, the lack of the feel of an ICE, the lack of a great soundtrack, the lack of a manual transmission, all make the switch to an EV a discouraging thing for me.

You seem to be so hung up on one metric of a cars performance. Even if it achieved 1000 miles per charge, what do you have? You have taken the car futher down the path to becoming even more of an appliance that you do not have to think about, ever.

Is this a good thing?

For the general population, maybe, for me. Nope.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:35 AM   #47
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Imagine driving an electric car with a 1000 mile capacity.
Toting around 380 kWh would make me ... nervous.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:43 AM   #48
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Toting around 380 kWh would make me ... nervous.
If you have ~12 gallons of gas in your tank you're already doing just that.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:07 PM   #49
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If you have ~12 gallons of gas in your tank you're already doing just that.
It always cracks me up when people get all paranoid about the dangers of carrying a large battery pack around when they're basically carrying a huge bomb of a gas tank around with them at all times in an ICE powered vehicle.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:17 PM   #50
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If you have ~12 gallons of gas in your tank you're already doing just that.
That's just the mechanical power potential, right? Wouldn't it only be a few gallons of gas if you considered raw potential (ie: all the potential heat and force available)?
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