Plasma/Ni-sil sprayed cylinder liners

TDagen · 01-15-2012, 01:41 PM

Has anyone heard of this?

The new 2013 650hp Ford Shelby GT500 is sporting an all aluminum block with plasma sprayed liners. They say it should be good for 150,000 miles of abuse.

They cycled the motor on an engine dyno for 250 hours between peak torque and peak horspower to make sure it was up to the task.

So whats the deal is it possible that this plasma or Ni-sil spray tech on our huge turboed 4's with the extreme cylinder temps may work well?

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Psychoreo · 01-15-2012, 01:52 PM

That sounds REALLY expensive.

binjoau · 01-15-2012, 01:57 PM

^^^ This but in for any info lol

Psychoreo · 01-15-2012, 02:00 PM

I mean, how often do liners fail?

Isn't it usually a bearing that spins or a piston giving up on life?

TDagen · 01-15-2012, 02:12 PM

It is expensive, I think I seen it being done for about $210 per cylinder. But if your going for big power this may be an alternative to sleeving.

This isn't going to be needed for most setups out there, but could be insurance for setups running 600whp +

Crazykev · 01-15-2012, 11:36 PM

They have been doing this in sportbike blocks for probably 10 years now. I don't think it would help hold any more power, just maybe last longer. In the bikes they did this instead of a steel liner. Just Nic-Sil in an aluminum bore.

TDagen · 01-16-2012, 12:21 AM

It must be working if they are doing the plasma spraying on the new 650hp shelby and its and all aluminum block running 15psi. The previous shelby had steel or iron liners.

CatfaceType-R · 01-16-2012, 08:07 AM

Interesting, I would think that adding any reliability would be something we should all be looking at.

ASF Machine · 01-16-2012, 08:24 AM

Porsche has been doing this since the 70s.

EmaciatedCow · 01-16-2012, 08:28 AM

^this

AMS · 01-16-2012, 10:11 AM

The vr38 from the GTR is also plasma lined from the factory. The only downside is that it can't be bored if you have problems with the engine and need to go to a larger bore piston in the future. The liner would need to be resprayed.

-Ty

brutnus · 01-16-2012, 11:09 AM

so from what i gather from this thread is its been done for years by other people but ford is coming out like its ground breaking?

binjoau · 01-16-2012, 11:20 AM

I think its just new for the Ford crowd not that they are breaking new boundaries

Team Scream · 01-16-2012, 12:47 PM

The big companies that do this are in Wisconsin, US Chrome is one of them. I asked them about doing this to subaru bores about 6 years ago. They told me it is not possible because of the composition of our liner material.

had well over 60 motorcycle engine cylinders done by them over the years

TDagen · 01-16-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutnus

so from what i gather from this thread is its been done for years by other people but ford is coming out like its ground breaking?

Who said ford is acting like its ground breaking? Ford is acting like they have a 650hp boosted car coming out next year.

I just happened to look at the specs of the all aluminum block and it sparked my interest. Anyone making cylinder cracking power should be interested.

TDagen · 01-16-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Scream

The big companies that do this are in Wisconsin, US Chrome is one of them. I asked them about doing this to subaru bores about 6 years ago. They told me it is not possible because of the composition of our liner material.

had well over 60 motorcycle engine cylinders done by them over the years

Ok cool thanks for the heads up!
Which one did they say isnt possible is it the plasma coating or the Ni-sil coating?

MartinSTi05 · 01-16-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDagen

Who said ford is acting like its ground breaking? Ford is acting like they have a 650hp boosted car coming out next year.

I just happened to look at the specs of the all aluminum block and it sparked my interest. Anyone making cylinder cracking power should be interested.

I don't think this process will do anything for you when it comes to cracking a cylinder. This process simply allows the liner to be sprayed on yielding better heat transfer and mitigating the issue of thermal expansion differences between the block/dissimilar liner. If you somehow cast an EJ block with no iron liner, and alum bores I have a feeling it would be weaker than a sleeved block.
I doubt ford did this due to mechanical strength. The superior heat transfer helps the integrity of the oil film and allows you to run a tighter PTW clearance because the block more effectively pulls heat from the pistons. This is attractive from an OEM perspective.

k mier · 01-16-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazykev

They have been doing this in sportbike blocks for probably 10 years now. I don't think it would help hold any more power, just maybe last longer. In the bikes they did this instead of a steel liner. Just Nic-Sil in an aluminum bore.

Closer to 30 years ago in mx bike applications. Better heat transfer, wears many times longer than sleeves, weights less. Weight is a major concern in mx bikes.

Crazykev · 01-16-2012, 05:08 PM

Cool, didn't know that. Huh, I am K Meyer.

Team Scream · 01-16-2012, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSTi05

I don't think this process will do anything for you when it comes to cracking a cylinder. This process simply allows the liner to be sprayed on yielding better heat transfer and mitigating the issue of thermal expansion differences between the block/dissimilar liner. If you somehow cast an EJ block with no iron liner, and alum bores I have a feeling it would be weaker than a sleeved block.

To add to this ^^ or perhaps add my experience with NiCom or NikaSil, it is not so much the heat transfer properties that add value or benefit, but rather the increased hardness it imparts to the original liner material (cylinder bore).

It makes the bores a lot more durable, and less likely to score and develop grooves, which then leads to poor ring seal, and blowby.

I would do this in a heartbeat if it could be done to our liners.

Scargod · 02-07-2013, 04:52 PM

I was told by two shops (that build Subie motors), that the cylinder wall of my late model 2.5L engine is hardened and one compared it to a Porsche engine cylinder.
I was told that if I honed it I would loose some of the hardened surface.
The other agreed it was hardened and suggested it was, or was like, Nickel-Silicon-Carbide (Nikasil/Nicosil/NiCaSil).
Now, isn't it common to bore cylinders .25mm over and more? Aren't these just ordinary ductile iron sleeves and nothing fancy?

Junior2JZ · 02-08-2013, 12:16 AM

GTRs make in the excess of 1500whp with OEM Plasma coated liners

Scargod · 02-08-2013, 05:52 AM

I thought we were talking Subarus... I had chrome lined cylinders on my Porsche, too. Doesn't get me any closer to a straight answer.

01-15-2012, 01:41 PM	#1
TDagen Scooby Specialist Member#: 163648 Join Date: Nov 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Minnesota, mpls Vehicle: 2002 Wrx,2.5L,HTA86 E85,2007 6mt,No traction	Plasma/Ni-sil sprayed cylinder liners Has anyone heard of this? The new 2013 650hp Ford Shelby GT500 is sporting an all aluminum block with plasma sprayed liners. They say it should be good for 150,000 miles of abuse. They cycled the motor on an engine dyno for 250 hours between peak torque and peak horspower to make sure it was up to the task. So whats the deal is it possible that this plasma or Ni-sil spray tech on our huge turboed 4's with the extreme cylinder temps may work well? * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

02-07-2013, 04:52 PM	#21
Scargod NASIOC Supporter Member#: 260314 Join Date: Oct 2010 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: S central CT, New England Vehicle: 2008 STI hatch silver	I was told by two shops (that build Subie motors), that the cylinder wall of my late model 2.5L engine is hardened and one compared it to a Porsche engine cylinder. I was told that if I honed it I would loose some of the hardened surface. The other agreed it was hardened and suggested it was, or was like, Nickel-Silicon-Carbide (Nikasil/Nicosil/NiCaSil). Now, isn't it common to bore cylinders .25mm over and more? Aren't these just ordinary ductile iron sleeves and nothing fancy? Last edited by Scargod; 02-07-2013 at 05:12 PM.

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Psychoreo Scooby Specialist Member#: 79643 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Torrington, CT Vehicle: 04 EJ207 Swapped Mikey tuned 271whp/287wtq	I mean, how often do liners fail? Isn't it usually a bearing that spins or a piston giving up on life?

01-15-2012, 02:12 PM	#5
TDagen Scooby Specialist Member#: 163648 Join Date: Nov 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Minnesota, mpls Vehicle: 2002 Wrx,2.5L,HTA86 E85,2007 6mt,No traction	It is expensive, I think I seen it being done for about $210 per cylinder. But if your going for big power this may be an alternative to sleeving. This isn't going to be needed for most setups out there, but could be insurance for setups running 600whp +

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Crazykev Scooby Specialist Member#: 93667 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati,Oh Vehicle: '03 Build'n a 2.12L 331whp/331wtq	They have been doing this in sportbike blocks for probably 10 years now. I don't think it would help hold any more power, just maybe last longer. In the bikes they did this instead of a steel liner. Just Nic-Sil in an aluminum bore.

01-16-2012, 12:21 AM	#7
TDagen Scooby Specialist Member#: 163648 Join Date: Nov 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Minnesota, mpls Vehicle: 2002 Wrx,2.5L,HTA86 E85,2007 6mt,No traction	It must be working if they are doing the plasma spraying on the new 650hp shelby and its and all aluminum block running 15psi. The previous shelby had steel or iron liners.

01-16-2012, 08:07 AM	#8
CatfaceType-R NASIOC Supporter Member#: 81102 Join Date: Feb 2005 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: busy cat	Interesting, I would think that adding any reliability would be something we should all be looking at.

01-16-2012, 08:24 AM	#9
ASF Machine NASIOC Vendor Member#: 236349 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Western Colorado Vehicle: 1993 600whpCrotchCar OD Green	Porsche has been doing this since the 70s.

01-16-2012, 08:28 AM	#10
EmaciatedCow Scooby Newbie Member#: 170373 Join Date: Jan 2008 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Nj Vehicle: 98 Forester 04 cooper s	^this

01-16-2012, 10:11 AM	#11
AMS Former Vendor Member#: 27854 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: West Chicago, IL Vehicle: STI, WRX, GTR, EVO, BMW, Porsche, + More!	The vr38 from the GTR is also plasma lined from the factory. The only downside is that it can't be bored if you have problems with the engine and need to go to a larger bore piston in the future. The liner would need to be resprayed. -Ty

01-16-2012, 11:09 AM	#12
brutnus Scooby Newbie Member#: 257195 Join Date: Sep 2010 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Hixson Vehicle: 2004 WRX 2.1L 12k miles strong	so from what i gather from this thread is its been done for years by other people but ford is coming out like its ground breaking?

01-16-2012, 11:20 AM	#13
binjoau Scooby Specialist Member#: 259948 Join Date: Oct 2010 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Regina, Canada Vehicle: MPS 510 whp GTX35R Long Rod Motor	I think its just new for the Ford crowd not that they are breaking new boundaries

01-16-2012, 12:47 PM	#14
Team Scream Scooby Specialist Member#: 121532 Join Date: Jul 2006 Chapter/Region: SCIC Vehicle: 2006 FXT/STi 6MT 01 Aerosim GC8 Coupe	The big companies that do this are in Wisconsin, US Chrome is one of them. I asked them about doing this to subaru bores about 6 years ago. They told me it is not possible because of the composition of our liner material. had well over 60 motorcycle engine cylinders done by them over the years

01-16-2012, 05:08 PM	#19
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Junior2JZ Scooby Guru Member#: 64908 Join Date: Jun 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Tuning 8/9sec Subies @ P&L Vehicle: 10.8 XT+ Real stock turbo record holder 11.4	GTRs make in the excess of 1500whp with OEM Plasma coated liners

02-08-2013, 05:52 AM	#23
Scargod NASIOC Supporter Member#: 260314 Join Date: Oct 2010 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: S central CT, New England Vehicle: 2008 STI hatch silver	I thought we were talking Subarus... I had chrome lined cylinders on my Porsche, too. Doesn't get me any closer to a straight answer.