EJ20 Rebuild vs. Purchasing Stock EJ20 engine [Mine spun a bearing]

[Concillian]

Originally Posted by loofer

That is true. Just before i read your post i did decide to stop furiously looking at the forums and wait to tear it down.

I dont't need 300hp. But how much hp can you run with a stock turbo?

With supporting mods, and tuned for more boost, the stock 2.0L turbo is essentially all done at somewhere between 220 and 250 WHP depending on the dyno. This will be the same regardless of which route you go with the block.

The block configuration primarily changes the torque curve. 2.1L and 2.5L configs will see more torque down low and an earlier HP peak, with the 2.1L offering slightly less torque, but a bit better up top than the 2.5L.
The EJ207 offers AVCS, which broadens the torque band. It will keep the upper RPM similar to the EJ205, but add in some low end in the stock turbo config. The turbo that comes with the package is bigger, so the spool ends up being similar to the stock turbo, but AVCS offers better off-boost response, and the turbo being bigger results in somewhere in the neghborhood of +50 HP vs. the stock turbo.

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[loofer]

Concillian: That is some killer info! You are very appreciated! Now that I have read through your info and (yet again) looked at some 2.1L stroker threads I feel like I don't want to try and get another block and deal with porting the heads.

Which narrows down my options:

2.0L shortblock
2.0L built motor
2.1 stroker

My next question would be what is the average life span of 2.1 stroker?

Also what would be a solid Engine management system to use for a 2.1, any favorites out there?

I have not laid out my goals at all either so here it goes:
-Daily Driver [longevity, reliability, etc.]
-250hp-300hp
-maintain stock turbo [cost reasons/ wait until it goes to upgrade]
-would like to raise the PSI on it
-low end torque and quick spool [because BOOST IS THE BEST FEELING EVER]

Let me know If I need to get more in depth.

Also should I snag an air pump delete for kicks?

[geronimo81]

I had to make the same decision but I was just simply rebuilding it stock. I re-used the pistons and rods and simply had a fresh hone done. I put new rings and bearings in and had the heads resurfaced and vacuum checked.

It was by far cheaper than buying a shortblock. I didn't buy a full gasket kit since you don't need half that stuff. I just found the individual part numbers and ordered them from Subaru.

I would do a stroker if I were you. It would be a big improvement over stock and not too crazy.

[chrisfromalbany]

Originally Posted by subaru_gc8

if your worried about money, just buy a short block form Subaru. that is the cheapeast route to go. you for got about honing your block too that will be a few hundred too. and I think your qoute is low too

Is there a place online to buy OEM shortblock for reduced priced or do you need go through local Subaru dealership, I see the prices quoted above are @ discount from the dealer so I even pay more? Any idea on price.. Even at the priced quoted at the discount to me it is a non-starter. It seems the 2.5 STi shortblock is cheaper then 2.0 liter shortblock. Is there a reason for that?

I have a 02' WRX with 180K miles on it and now upgrading the exhaust and thinking about moving up to a VF39. But wanted to know how much pain I be in when the engine goes. Compression test came back 150-155 and no knock even when starting in the morning.

[Concillian]

Originally Posted by loofer

I have not laid out my goals at all either so here it goes:
-Daily Driver [longevity, reliability, etc.]
-250hp-300hp
-maintain stock turbo [cost reasons/ wait until it goes to upgrade]
-would like to raise the PSI on it
-low end torque and quick spool [because BOOST IS THE BEST FEELING EVER]

Let me know If I need to get more in depth.

Also should I snag an air pump delete for kicks?

2.0L doesn't have an air pump, so don't grab a delete. Air pumps are 06+.

My opinion is that 2.1L stroker is the best daily driver configuration for most people. The 2.5L does provide more torque, but then you have to be concerned about the MPG loss or damaging the transmission. The 2.0L does better at high RPMs, but the stock heads aren't well suited for that. The EJ205 is a fundamentally mismatched engine, with a shortblock that revs to 8k in stock form in JDM markets with only a rod upgrade, but matched to heads that don't like much above 6000 RPM. The 2.1L is the middle ground that brings low end torque and earlier spool, but not as much as the 2.5L. The pistons are even lighter than 2.0L pistons, so it still revs out pretty well, and is well suited to have the same redline as the original engine.

The issue with the 2.1L is that you need to use forged pistons. These will significantly reduce the time between rebuilds. With normal daily driver type loads, you can expect 2618 alloy pistons to start consuming significant oil somewhere around 50k. 4032 alloy pistons have tighter clearances and and will last maybe 100k. OEM hypereutectic cast pistons are more on the order of 200k.

Your goals are mild enough that I'd definitely use 4032 pistons if going 2.1L. Mahle makes an off the shelf 4032. Most others are special order / custom, and that significantly increases the price of the pistons.

The information in this forum has shown that it's pretty important to use torque plates for the EJ205 due to the open deck. The block moves when the heads are torqued, and will change both the piston to wall clearances and the ring gaps. make sure the shop uses torque plates when they bore to your pistons and then borrow or rent those plates when you set the ring gap (or pay them to set the gaps for you while they have the plates on your block.)


On the stock turbo, you aren't going to use much in the high RPM area. On the 2 liter, with a maxed stock turbo, you're hitting peak power below 6000 RPM, and with a longer stroke, you'll hit peak power a little earlier. So there isn't a ton of reason to go nuts on the heads, just basic servicing that old heads will need like replacing valve guides, probably a valve job and perhaps replace the springs.

[Fierysun]

The easiest and safest route is a brand new 2.0L short block from Subaru. Which is what i suggest.

As for rebuilding. Even good shops blow it on Subaru motors, by not getting the clearances perfect. Which these engines are very sensitive to. Hence low oil pressure, noisy pistons, blow by, high oil consumption, short engine life, and etc.

[Fierysun]

Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany

Is there a place online to buy OEM shortblock for reduced priced or do you need go through local Subaru dealership, I see the prices quoted above are @ discount from the dealer so I even pay more? Any idea on price.. Even at the priced quoted at the discount to me it is a non-starter. It seems the 2.5 STi shortblock is cheaper then 2.0 liter shortblock. Is there a reason for that?

I have a 02' WRX with 180K miles on it and now upgrading the exhaust and thinking about moving up to a VF39. But wanted to know how much pain I be in when the engine goes. Compression test came back 150-155 and no knock even when starting in the morning.

Try Subaru Genuine Parts.

If you have good compression and oil pressure (around 30psi at idle and 80psi while cruising on the highway). The only thing you have to worry about is the head gaskets going. Especially with 180k on the clock.

[chrisfromalbany]

Originally Posted by Fierysun

The easiest and safest route is a brand new 2.0L short block from Subaru. Which is what i suggest.

As for rebuilding. Even good shops blow it on Subaru motors, by not getting the clearances perfect. Which these engines are very sensitive to. Hence low oil pressure, noisy pistons, blow by, high oil consumption, short engine life, and etc.

Guessing this is a good option for 1.75K

http://www.flatironstuning.com/p-208...hortblock.aspx

[loofer]

That is a solid Like! Have you ordered from them at all before?

[Fierysun]

Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany

Guessing this is a good option for 1.75K

http://www.flatironstuning.com/p-208...hortblock.aspx

Great price for a brand new EJ205 short block.

[nola]

about to pull mine apart and decide what way im going

[loofer]

HELP what kind i use to remove the release fork shaft????? The manual says 6mm dia. Bolt, but i dont i have that lying around

[loofer]

Actual that was pretty simple haha, but i am offically stuck. The engine is not seperating from the trans. There are only 8 bolts that keep it together correct?

Release fork shaft is out. 8 bolts out of bellhousing. Pitch stopper is off. Why is it not seperating???

Any thoughts?

[kakarot09]

It's just a pain sometimes. It's a pain to put together sometimes too. Some are worse than others. I've had some that I can grab by the intake and exhaust manifold and pull the engine from the transmission and others where I've had a friend and myself yank on it and not come apart. You can try adding some pb blaster at the areas where the two guide pins are. Also can try heating that area. Neither is all that easy with the space constraints. I have also hammered a small thin sharp piece of steel between them to separate them and use a prybar.

[gqjag7921]

NASIOC member sdmideas sells rebuilt shortblocks for significantly less than one from Subaru. Just throwing this out there.

[geronimo81]

Originally Posted by loofer

Actual that was pretty simple haha, but i am offically stuck. The engine is not seperating from the trans. There are only 8 bolts that keep it together correct?

Release fork shaft is out. 8 bolts out of bellhousing. Pitch stopper is off. Why is it not seperating???

Any thoughts?

Do you have it lifted up so the motor mounts are clearing the cross member?

[loofer]

Here she is as of this weekend. No luck separating the engine.



I couldn't find a dead blow lying around so i did my best with a hammer and 2 by 4. I literally just spent 2 hours just searching the bell housing over to see if I missed anything. I am doing this basically out in farmville and i had no other eyes to help me out.

I did have the engine clear the mount studs. I got under the car to look and make sure even. I do appreciate the help. I was relying on you guys for wisdom!

I yanked on the intake, the hoist, the lift chains, and everything i could and still zero separation. When my cousin gets back from Vegas we will go at it.

In the mean time what should i use to shine up an intercooler!

[wrx1392]

there an allen headed plug on the drivers side of the bell housing un screw that ,and the pin is in side there.use a bolt from your cam covers ,a 2-3 inch one will do the trick .thread it into the clutch fork shaft ,and pull it out .then your tranny and engine will come apart.mine was stuck pretty good it took some work to seperate them . if i had to do it all again i would but a new stock short block ,and get your heads done buy some one that knows how to do a subaru ,if you do a valve job they have to reset the lash from the cam lobes to the spring buckets.some have sized buckets some have shims to set lash with ...any way it has been a pain doing the rebuild .if you have a used block ,you better buy a new crank and have the rods resized or get new STI rods.i had to get size 0 cosworth main bearings and std rod bearings ,you'll need micrometers and bore gauges to measure and make sure your bearing clearances are set right. so unless you have rebuilt engines before i would just get a new short block.

[wrx1392]

Originally Posted by loofer

Here she is as of this weekend. No luck separating the engine.



I couldn't find a dead blow lying around so i did my best with a hammer and 2 by 4. I literally just spent 2 hours just searching the bell housing over to see if I missed anything. I am doing this basically out in farmville and i had no other eyes to help me out.

I did have the engine clear the mount studs. I got under the car to look and make sure even. I do appreciate the help. I was relying on you guys for wisdom!

I yanked on the intake, the hoist, the lift chains, and everything i could and still zero separation. When my cousin gets back from Vegas we will go at it.

In the mean time what should i use to shine up an intercooler!

i had to use a metal putty spreader to seperate mine ...i had to pound it inbetween the block and tranny ,becarful as you can damage the soft alum. the alignment pins are steel and the tranny is alum so there might be some corrosion holding it together . so spay those with WD40 or a rust blaster.but you got to get the clutch fork pin out or it wont come all the way apart.

[loofer]

MOTOR IS OUT! WOOT!

Sunny & 20 Degrees!



So we finally Pulled the motor yesterday! It took some mad muscle and weight to budge that engine. It took us an hour to try and seperate it. It was getting so difficult that we just contemplated pulling the trans with it! LOL Here is what we ended up doing to finally get it. First the good news was I had everything seperated and out that needed to be, so it wasn't like I missed a bolt that was holding it on. We actually stood on the alternator and JUMPEd on it to create enough separation to get a flat iron in there!


We were then very careful with using a pry bar to get the engine clear of the mainshaft. We did end up bending the 2 belhousing studs, so we will have to replace those. We then started to tear into the actually issue at hand, what was really the main cause of all this? But of course we ran into another snag!

The cam pulley on the intake side wouldn't move! haha it was on there like a beast. I pushed up the end of the camshaft with a huge crescent wrench as cousin pulled down with a long breaker bar. The crescent wrench would slip everyonce in a while because you had to have it on that cam just right in order for it to hold. we tried and tried, then we resorted to some MAP gas heat and even that 1000 degree heat didn't budge it. We end up shearing the allen wrench socket we were using. So we had to resort to beasting on a large pair of clamp pliers to the allen itself. We put a foot and a half long bar on the pliers and proceed to do the same thing. after putting a solid 200 ft/lbs of torque on it, she broke loose! Woot!

We took apart the head and noticed everything to be in order hear, just a little bit of wear on the camshaft. [Just going to get that one polished up and call it good]

We got the intake off then went to the bottom end and pulled the pan. Here is what we found:

NO BUENO! Its like Mining for Gold (Or brass, haha) in that Pan!
We look up and proceeded to check the cylinder 3 rod and piston.

We pushed up on the number 3 Rod and it moved a good quarter of an inch!
Here is our Problem Child!

How's that for a rod bearing! haha!

We noticed to when we pulled the Head off , that the top of piston 3 was actually flaking off material. The bearing pieces went up to the piston and seized up the oil ring and allowed that cylinder to burn oil something fierce!

So like we thought, a spun bearing! Your guys advice as been great when trying to pull the motor, I resorted back to the forums a look! [You all rock!] Now I am going to go over the budget one more time and decide which way to go (Most likely I will go with the 2.1 Stroker). Thanks for following the post, more updates to come!

[loofer]

Does anyone know any solid maps for a 2.1 stroker with everything stock [except for aftermarket exhaust from the turbo back]? It would be for the Cobb AccessPort

[loofer]

UPDATE! The motor is going to the Machine shop to get bored and assembled!
Here is what I ended up using for internals.

OEM 2010 STI heated Crankshaft 79mm stroke
Mahle 92.5mm 4032 forge pistons
Manley H-beam rods (std size)
ACL main and rod bearings

Anyone have any suggestions as far as timing this best?? Just go back to stock settings or advance it a little?

I will have a cobb accessport here in a few days and the only thing not stock besides the built shortblock will be the aftermarket 3inch exahust from the turbo back.

Does anyone know of a tuning shop that has a solid make for a build like this???

Also, is it ok to start this beast up with the stock ecu map??? or will that break in the motor funny?

Would love your wisdom!

- Loofer

[Concillian]

Timing will be ever so slightly off due to decking the head gasket surface a couple thou, and this shortens the distance the belt needs to go.

Teeth are 14 crank degrees each, as I recall. It's a bit large to be skipping teeth on purpose, IMO, and there are no decent cam gears available for reasonable prices. You can go at least a tooth in either direction and not have any interference, so if you want to skip a tooth and set it up for more low end or high end, that's your call.

I made a mistake in my PM to you. The 79mm stroke will theoretically want more timing than the 75mm stroke, so your stock ECU should be okay for break in. I'd still try to find a break-in map from whoever you're going to get your final tune from, as that will undoubtedly be safer than just giving it a go with the stock ECU, and you're going to need to find a tuner anyway, better now than later. Ask in the MWSOC for local tuners, or find e-tuners in the vendor classifieds here.

[loofer]

Solid info!!! Anyone know from whom I can get a solid base map from for my cobb at a fair price???

It should be less than a week and ill have the block back from the machine shop. It will be looking mighty green!!!

Any advice out there when installing the heads? I was just at a different machine shop in town and they said if you don't fill a small nook in the heads with oil, the cams will seize.

Any other words of wisdom out there like this?

[PSBeachBum]

where your pics go?