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Old 02-08-2013, 12:20 PM   #1
sheshani
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Default Help with MAF - beginner

Hi
need some help guys i'm beginner here and need some help to understand some points. i'm new to open port and the car it self

my car is:
Subaru Impreza 2002 STI JDM ej20
Intake, downpipe, uppipe , vf 28

I replaced the ecu with used one and thought it need MAF scaling as I understand from reading on threads

I followed the MAF scalling manual and did 60 min driving on flat road with rpm rang 1500-3500 without boost then updated the MAF between 1.6 -2.4 but not sure if I should flash the results to car .

i'll post the results:









and here some logging :
http://www.sheshani.com/sti/log0015.csv
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:57 PM   #2
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what are you utilizing to check AFR in open loop?

I would add 10% across the board and re-check it personally....
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:11 PM   #3
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Yeah, looks like the intake is leaning, but pretty consistent, your average varies by less than +/- 5%. Adding 10% across the board and re-checking seems like a decent idea.

Have you seen what's happening in open loop? You'll get a slight bit smoother in closed loop, but the real benefits will come from open loop.

Your IAM is low, but it may not have learned up to 16 yet. If you hold the brake and go 3500ish RPM at mild boost, like 5psi, it'll shoot up to 16 in a few seconds, then your timing adjustments on LV will mean something.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:36 PM   #4
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Default not yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by dux10 View Post
what are you utilizing to check AFR in open loop?

I would add 10% across the board and re-check it personally....
I ordered AEM UEGO 30-4100 and didn't receive it yet.

you mean adding 10% to all range of MAF table or just the range I selected ?
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Yeah, looks like the intake is leaning, but pretty consistent, your average varies by less than +/- 5%. Adding 10% across the board and re-checking seems like a decent idea.

Have you seen what's happening in open loop? You'll get a slight bit smoother in closed loop, but the real benefits will come from open loop.

Your IAM is low, but it may not have learned up to 16 yet. If you hold the brake and go 3500ish RPM at mild boost, like 5psi, it'll shoot up to 16 in a few seconds, then your timing adjustments on LV will mean something.
it seems I need some studying on open loop before answering your question

my IAM was 16 before few days when I first check the learning view. but it dropt to 11 and no idea way.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:48 PM   #6
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Did you check for any leaks? Youre maxing out your low range learning.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #7
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Default open loop

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:17 PM   #8
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/\ That doesn't mean anything. Just because you input a value into the Openloop table it doesn't mean that is what you get at the tailpipe. Especially if the MAF is not scaled properly. That's the whole purpose of needing a wideband. And a 9.5:1AFR at WOT is pig rich. Most target around 11:1. What fuel are you running and where are you located?
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:12 PM   #9
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That's richer than my stock version 8 table, which is very rich. I suspect it was tuned by adjusting the OL table only and not touching the MAF calibration. This would mean it would need to be set rich to compensate for the MAf miscalibration, which is clearly leaner than the stock MAF cal.

If so, and the car was tuned right after flashing (as is typical,) then you end up going even richer after the car learns a positive offset. However, looking at your learning view again, it looks like the tuner raised the D range g/sec so the ECU learning won't affect open loop. This has it's own potential pitfalls, but if you're going to tune by adjusting the OL fueling only, then it's probably best to do it this way.

It could also be this way to compensate for the 300 g/s limit in the 16-bit ECUs and eek out a few extra %. There are better ways to do that, but this way certainly works.

Last edited by Concillian; 02-08-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quazimoto View Post
/\ That doesn't mean anything. Just because you input a value into the Openloop table it doesn't mean that is what you get at the tailpipe. Especially if the MAF is not scaled properly. That's the whole purpose of needing a wideband. And a 9.5:1AFR at WOT is pig rich. Most target around 11:1. What fuel are you running and where are you located?
i'm running 95 fuel ( we belive its less by 3-4 point than they say it is) and located in Jordan 850 m above see level.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
That's richer than my stock version 8 table, which is very rich. I suspect it was tuned by adjusting the OL table only and not touching the MAF calibration. This would mean it would need to be set rich to compensate for the MAf miscalibration, which is clearly leaner than the stock MAF cal.

If so, and the car was tuned right after flashing (as is typical,) then you end up going even richer after the car learns a positive offset. However, looking at your learning view again, it looks like the tuner raised the D range g/sec so the ECU learning won't affect open loop. This has it's own potential pitfalls, but if you're going to tune by adjusting the OL fueling only, then it's probably best to do it this way.

It could also be this way to compensate for the 300 g/s limit in the 16-bit ECUs and eek out a few extra %. There are better ways to do that, but this way certainly works.
50+ g/s is the normal setting for D range. I've also never seen the car run richer after a reset
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:52 PM   #12
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Umm, if his comps are positive, then it will get richer after a reset. Comps are always zero on reset, so as it learns the positive compensations, it will get richer.

If you tune the fueling table without scaling the MAF, then since you've tuned it with comps near zero, it will run rich in OL when the ECU learns to be richer in closed loop.

You're correct that he didn't raise the D range spec, I missed that. I know the JDM version 8 ROM has significantly lower thresholds for CL to OL (max throttle % for open loop is barely over 30% while USDM has most cells @ 70%). Base pulse width OL trigger for engine load is also significantly lower than USDM @ 3200+ RPM. I would assume the version 7 ROM he's using is similar. It could be that his ROM can't hit 50+ g/s in closed loop, which would prevent long term trims from affecting the open loop map... or it could just be he hasn't driven enough of that for the ECU to learn trims in that range.

Last edited by Concillian; 02-09-2013 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:09 PM   #13
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what should I do ?
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:14 PM   #14
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i noticed a lot of values from 0.5-4.5 in Knock_Correction_Advance on RPM >3500 while logging , is it normal?
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshani View Post
what should I do ?
1) get a wideband if you don't have one. Get it installed and setup so you can log that along with other parameters in Romraider

2) After getting your wideband setup, as mentioned above, you should add approx 10% to your MAF table. Just highlight the entire table and multiply by 1.1 for a start.

3) As you note that you are pulling timing, you should remove some timing from your timing tables. Remove 2-4 degrees for areas above ~1.2 g/sec and 2800 RPM to start and see if your IAM is still dropping. Where you've logged 4.5 degrees of FLKC, remove 4-5 degrees or so, where you've logged less FLKC, remove less. This is where the stock ECU is so nice to tune, it finds the edge for you, use it as your guide. Smooth out differences in cells so you have gradual transitions between RPMs and loads.

4) Flash that map to your ECU. Monitor FLKC and FBKC, but you're really wanting to get the MAF scale right first. Use Bad Noodle's OL MAF spreadsheet (download version 2.1 from here: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=32&t=4863 )
You need to log:

engine speed (RPM)
Engine load (g/rev)
AFR from your wideband O2
MAFv
Throttle Position

Use Airboy's spreadsheet ( http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic957.html )to open your CSV file. Open your file, and click the button to filter WOT data. Copy your OL fuel map from Romraider into the tab labeled <AFR target>. Go to the tab labeled <AFR Interpolate> click "clear data" then 'Grab Headers". You need to select the header that has your Wideband O2 data in it for AFR. Now "Get data" and "Interpolate AFR"

You'll end up with MAFv in one column and another column will have %AFR error. This is the difference between the AFR recorded by your wideband and the AFR your ECU is requesting. Copy these two columns into Bad Noodles spreadsheet.

Repeat for 1 or two more pulls so you have some redundancy to average.

Also you have to look at the data and manually look where it first reaches full boost, you probably want to manually delete some of these cells, as the ECU will make a "rich dip" here that is normal, good, and not something you want to affect your MAF scaling.

Now follow the directions in Bad Noodles MAF scaling sheet.

5) Re-flash with your new MAF scale and verify your AFR corrections are pretty small.

6) Adjust your fueling map so your moderate loads (~<5psi) are in the 12.5-13 range and as loads increase, you gradually richen to your target value of around 10.8 - 10.9 for 91 octane 11-11.1 for 93, etc... up to 11.5ish for race fuel / ethanol that has very high octane ratings. (I'm defining octane ratings in the way it's done in the US... the average of RON & MON. RON is usually 3 or 4 units higher than this average. I don't know how they measure octane rating in your country.

Some people move towards running a point or two richer at redline for additional safety. Your call on that.

Iterate maps until your logged pulls are pretty consistent. They should stay within +/- 0.1 of your target value from just past the RPM you get full boost to redline.

7) Now you adjust your timing so you are at the edge of getting knock. You want no FBKC or FLKC. add timing in small increments if you're not getting FBKC or FLKC in a load area. Subtract timing if you have FLKC or FBKC. I subtract about 1 degree per degree of FLKC and about 0.5 degrees per degree of FBKC.

The ECU will adjust and learn if you get knock, but you don't want it to get too much. You want your IAM to stay at 16 and maybe end up with at most 1-2 load cells with 0.5 to 1 degree of learned knock. very small values like that is okay, but your goal is no learned knock in any cells.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:26 PM   #16
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^^^^^^^^^^^^this guy knows his ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to him


And stay thirsty my friends
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:26 AM   #17
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What intake is this? Check for leaks before you go and proceed!!
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:59 AM   #18
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i don't know how to thank you
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:01 AM   #19
sheshani
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What intake is this? Check for leaks before you go and proceed!!
i did check for leaks yesterday and didn't find any.
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:02 PM   #20
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Ahlan wa Sahlan
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