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Old 02-17-2013, 04:38 PM   #51
JustyWRC
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Originally Posted by sential View Post
Well the Evora doesn't sell as fast for a lot of reasons... Maybe the $65K price tag has something to with it???


And you said put a similar engine in the BRZ. So, when it is $65K, are you going to buy it because it got the "more HP" you wanted?
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:21 PM   #52
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Count the number of remarks in regard to this car stating "I wish it was a convertible, then I'd buy it". Then count the number of people stating "I wish it had more hp". It should be clear what the most desired attribute for this car is...
Let me try and ask this a different way since you wish to be stuck on the "lack of" power (which there isn't).

If there are people that will not buy the car due to the lack of power, then it wouldn't be selling in the numbers it is, right? But that's not the case. If the car needs more power, why did they have to increase production?

Case is, they don't. The people have spoken. The sales have spoken. The numbers have come in. The power is more than adequate for what the car is.

Those that decry not having enough power, again, do not understand, at all, what this car is about. And that's OK... because they don't miss you not buying the car... they have MORE THAN the buyers they need, already.

This car does not NEED more power.

--kC
p.s. Ignorant is not a put down. It means "Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular" Blissfully unaware: you just didn't know. If I wanted to belittle you, I would have called you stupid or dumb or a host of other words. So since you took it as an attack, you clearly have issues that you need to resolve.

Last edited by KC; 02-17-2013 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
And you said put a similar engine in the BRZ. So, when it is $65K, are you going to buy it because it got the "more HP" you wanted?
I'd probably do what all the potential Evora buyers are doing now and get a Cayman with a better engine for less money. That's another aspect of the "more power" argument people seem to forget, more power would cost more money. Or they could cheap out in other areas and we'd end up with a Mustang.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:19 PM   #54
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:46 PM   #55
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And you said put a similar engine in the BRZ. So, when it is $65K, are you going to buy it because it got the "more HP" you wanted?
It's the same engine they put in the Camry and a number of other toyotas and lexus'
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:02 PM   #56
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It's the same engine they put in the Camry and a number of other toyotas and lexus'

This car was engineered around the boxer motor. At what point do you think that a V-6 is going to fit in that thing when they are saying a turbo won't?
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:24 PM   #57
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This car was engineered around the boxer motor. At what point do you think that a V-6 is going to fit in that thing when they are saying a turbo won't?
For a second you almost made me feel like I was crazy for thinking a v6 would fit... So I did a little google research and what do you know... Tom's racing used the exact engine I was referring to...

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota/...-ar143726.html



Quote:
But the main event of this program is undoubtedly under that hood, or to be exact, what was taken and out and what was put in. See, the GT 86’s stock 2.0-liter engine has been replaced with a 3.5-liter 2GR-FSE V-6 engine that you’ll typically find in a Lexus GS 350.

With that powertrain in tow, the N086V produces up to 395 horsepower and 332 pound-feet of torque. Do the math and that’s almost twice as many ponies lurking inside the sports car, waiting to be unleashed at the slam of a pedal.

To accommodate the dramatic increase in output, TOMS’ installed a reinforced clutch, high-performance brakes, and a new coil-over Advox suspension just to make sure the handling of the car can be kept in check.

Last edited by sential; 02-17-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:45 PM   #58
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KC, im sure it doesnt need more power. I was considering buying one but they were not readily available yet.

My point is that for $28k 200 hp / 25 ish mpg is poor compared to many other cars. I dont understand why they would do that to a " performance " vehicle.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
KC, im sure it doesnt need more power. I was considering buying one but they were not readily available yet.

My point is that for $28k 200 hp / 25 ish mpg is poor compared to many other cars. I dont understand why they would do that to a " performance " vehicle.
I easily average combined 30mpg on my BRZ limited 6MT. With the BRZ now eligible for VIP you can easily knock off ~1.5k off the price. Have you had extended seat time in a brz or frs?
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:49 PM   #60
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To accommodate the dramatic increase in output, TOMS’ installed a reinforced clutch, high-performance brakes, and a new coil-over Advox suspension just to make sure the handling of the car can be kept in check.
But they had to add 15lbs to the car! The horror!
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:54 AM   #61
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But they had to add 15lbs to the car! The horror!
But now the center of gravity must be like fifteen feet above the roof! Everyone knows a low CG is the only important thing in a car.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:12 AM   #62
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I've never seen the need for a convertible car, but I know that is just my opinion and not the prevailing one. However, both arguments for a higher power version and a convertible version are asinine - this car is selling well enough that they don't need either version.

If I were to put my money on an improvement path that embodied the original concept and the design philosophy, more power and open top are probably the last place I would look. Lower the weight, improve suspension, lower COG would fit the DNA much better. Arguments beyond those ideals are just attempts at justifying your own wants.

If they build a convertible, great. It's a departure from the central concept but it will probably sell well. It just seems to smell a little like a boardroom decision instead of an enthusiast one. Yes, I know the car may have been engineered to be a convertible to begin with, but I still suspect the fixed roof was chosen because it didn't compromise as much as a convertible.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:24 AM   #63
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But now the center of gravity must be like fifteen feet above the roof! Everyone knows a low CG is the only important thing in a car.
COG is one of those things you can measure but not qualify. Drive feel is a subjective measure and can be influenced by COG, steering feel, suspension, tires, and various other factors. For the BRZ, it's a combination of all of these things that have been combined to get some really good reviews in several magazines. It's easy to write off one of those variables as "Arbitrary" when it suits an argument but I contend that COG might actually be the secret ingredient rather than the inconsequential one.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:26 AM   #64
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It was designed primarily as a convertible. The chassis rigidity is/was already present for it to lose the top.

Hence, the ultra stiff and responsive chassis.

--kC
OK, KC.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:05 AM   #65
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Well, it was a decent car and it sold pretty well for a sports car but I don't think GM wanted to put the money and effort to Chevy-ize it considering sales dropped off due to the recession and the whole bankruptcy thing. Much like the the G8, the timing was all wrong.

A fail that the Solstice experienced was that there was a hardtop that could not be stored in the vehicle. You had to purchase the extra soft-top if you wanted a roof on the go.
There was a bunch of "WTF were they thinking" engineering querks with the twins. Unlike our Miata, it was hard to take a Solstice on a weekend get away for two with a lack of trunk space. There were everyday nags too. I had a nice little Redline for a full week to try it out and both the wife and I decided the Miata was just easier to live with.

Last edited by mhoward1; 02-18-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:15 AM   #66
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Yes I know this is a well balanced car, and it's meant for the twisties... But it's not an either/or situation.. You can have both...a car that handles like its on rails and puts your head in the back seat when you mash the pedal.
You are missing a point on your triangle, price.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:36 AM   #67
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You are missing a point on your triangle, price.
Exactly. Now i just need some more.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:18 AM   #68
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Exactly. Now i just need some more.
pointy triangles?
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:20 AM   #69
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Pink triangles. hkerekes wants a fabulous miata.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:22 AM   #70
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But now the center of gravity must be like fifteen feet above the roof! Everyone knows a low CG is the only important thing in a car.
You want that ice machine motor as low and far back as possible.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by sential View Post
For a second you almost made me feel like I was crazy for thinking a v6 would fit... So I did a little google research and what do you know... Tom's racing used the exact engine I was referring to...

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota/...-ar143726.html

Yep. And some drift team put a V-8 in a GT-86 even before they were released. Again. Cost. Reliability. Warranty. Just about anything can be done to any car. There is a Justy out there with a full WRX drivetrain in it. There is a guy here in my area that put a full Corvette LS1 drivetrain in a Honda Civic hatchback. Called it the Civette. Even had the fully functional dash in it with the HUD.

And I wouldn't want you to think you were crazy. A V-6 would be cool in it. Gotta be realistic though for this "production car".

Quote:
Originally Posted by manticus View Post
I've never seen the need for a convertible car, but I know that is just my opinion and not the prevailing one. However, both arguments for a higher power version and a convertible version are asinine - this car is selling well enough that they don't need either version.

If I were to put my money on an improvement path that embodied the original concept and the design philosophy, more power and open top are probably the last place I would look. Lower the weight, improve suspension, lower COG would fit the DNA much better. Arguments beyond those ideals are just attempts at justifying your own wants.

If they build a convertible, great. It's a departure from the central concept but it will probably sell well. It just seems to smell a little like a boardroom decision instead of an enthusiast one. Yes, I know the car may have been engineered to be a convertible to begin with, but I still suspect the fixed roof was chosen because it didn't compromise as much as a convertible.

If they designed the car to also be a convertable, I would consider that to be part of the "central concept". You said it also. None of these things are "needed". They are wants by the customers. The only thing anyone would "need" is a car with 4 wheels that will get them to their destination. Anything else is a want.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:23 PM   #72
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Subaru needs to push further in the southern states. A convertible is exactly what is needed to achieve that. Anybody claiming that a "sports car" should not be a convertible clearly has no idea what a sports car is.

MG's, Alfa's, Fiats, BMW Z3 /Z4, Miata, Corvettes (before they became GT cars) were all convertible or roadsters with a hard top released at some point to appease the masses.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:50 PM   #73
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I think i might like the car as a convertible, but there are better convertible options out.

I'm not sure what separates this from a Miata?
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:07 PM   #74
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A back seat.. more neutral handling.. more power.. and likely a higher price.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:24 PM   #75
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I think i might like the car as a convertible, but there are better convertible options out.

I'm not sure what separates this from a Miata?
What other convertible options are there?

While the back seat isn't very usable, it does have a back seat, which even with the convertible will give it a lot more space than the Miata. Other than that, the suspension is a little stiffer than a Miata stock, power/weight isn't much different. Once you option a Miata with LSD and all the other crap the BRZ has in the base model the price isn't all that much different.
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