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Old 02-14-2013, 03:56 PM   #126
dstroy
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I ordered parts for my AWIC today from frozenboost and summit. Corky Bell's book was good like 20 years ago, a lot has changed. He even says in the book that AWIC setups are no good/unreliable for daily drivers, and he has a total boner for VATN turbos that are impractical. All that book is good for is learning that compressed air is hot, you should use an intercooler and some other basics about how an engine works.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:42 PM   #127
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I mounted my pump up today, I can't weld so this is what I ended up with







I used 1/8th in. aluminum bar stock to actually mount it to the car. It's suspended by the 2 bars on the top and held in it's mount with neoprene wrapped bolts. I did it like that so that vibration from the car wouldn't shake the pump up as much.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #128
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There is still about 1/4" of space above the bolt heads underneath the ballast for the HID.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:38 AM   #129
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I'm starting to collect parts for my AWIC project and I have one question- how are you wiring the pump?
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:07 PM   #130
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I used one of those "add a fuse" deals in the dash fuse box. That allows me to unplug it if needed.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:44 PM   #131
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Are you using the bilge pump or the Bosch pump? Do you know how much current it draws?
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:42 PM   #132
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I'm using the Bosch Cobra pump. No idea what it draws.


Scratch that. Looked on their website and it says it will draw 2.5 to 3.5 amps with 317GPH.

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...5c2760e01416c1
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:16 PM   #133
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I built a wiring harness for the pump, the pump and relay are fused, and the fans for the heat exchanger are also relayed/fused on a separate circuit. I have a switch inside the car to turn the fans on or off if my water temp goes above ambient. I'll be able to put up some more pics of my build when I get my car back tomorrow. I popped the motor and got a built block dropped in.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:20 PM   #134
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I'm using the meziere wp136s which is a purpose built remote water pump, they're designed to be run continuously and have a better tolerance for higher operating temps. Even though my pump is mounted inside of my fender it still gets hot in there. I don't have any idea what the current draw is, but the pump comes with a 20a fuse, so never more than that. I upgraded my alternator to a 270a dc power engineering one a while ago so I don't have to sweat adding anything electrical to my car.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #135
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It's just a 30a relay with 2 fuses, one 20a to the battery, and one 5a to the relay coil hotside. I heatshrink and solder everything.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:26 PM   #136
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I put all of my extra relays underneath my engine bay fuse panel, it just pops right up if you release all of the tabs around it, and then put a little bit of foam tape around the relays so they don't vibrate around all over the place. It keeps everything clean, safe and in one place in case you need to t/s a blown fuse or relay on stuff you added to the car.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:37 PM   #137
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You don't even have to use a soldering iron on this stuff either, you can just use a cheap butane torch like I do, AND you can use that on your heatshrink. It's way faster than using an iron, the harnesses only took me like 10 minutes to build once I set out all of my materials.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:03 PM   #138
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What is the longest (to fill the whole bumper opening without showing end tanks) heat exchanger made? I still am really interested in this on my daily but not sure if it would be an advantage to a fmic. I also don't really like having to take the fmic off every time I want to do something but even this is easier than a sti one to take off.

Also, what is the largest that fits up there? The type 14 (I believe) that everyone uses is really small it seems.


Eventually I will be upgrading to a full race twin scroll Borg Warner 8070 and want to future proof anything I do.



I like this idea a lot but I'm a little worrie dab out hot humid Chicago summers and traffic etc and it heat soaking? I'm speed density so I gotta keep temps under control quickly.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:07 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
What is the longest (to fill the whole bumper opening without showing end tanks) heat exchanger made? I still am really interested in this on my daily but not sure if it would be an advantage to a fmic. I also don't really like having to take the fmic off every time I want to do something but even this is easier than a sti one to take off.

Also, what is the largest that fits up there? The type 14 (I believe) that everyone uses is really small it seems.

Eventually I will be upgrading to a full race twin scroll Borg Warner 8070 and want to future proof anything I do.

I like this idea a lot but I'm a little worrie dab out hot humid Chicago summers and traffic etc and it heat soaking? I'm speed density so I gotta keep temps under control quickly.
You cant "oversize" the heat exchanger. Yes there's a law of diminishing returns in effect, but bigger is better for a street car. If you run the pump 100% you will not have to worry about heat soak as long as the system is well designed (proper core size, big heat exchanger and an ample reservoir).

We have a heat exchanger design that was designed to fit a subaru like a big front mount...so like 28" across on the core. Shoot a pm if you want pricing info.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:35 PM   #140
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What is the longest (to fill the whole bumper opening without showing end tanks) heat exchanger made? Also, what is the largest that fits up there? The type 14 (I believe) that everyone uses is really small it seems.
I have had a lot of success with AC condensers. I think it is because it takes a long path through the heat exchanger, so as much of the water as possible is in contact with the ambient air. They are also normally about 1/2" thick, so very easy to sneak in somewhere.

I do not like heat exchangers with tubes and end tanks like a radiator. If you use an infrared thermometer you can see that the temperatures are highest in between the inlet and outlet and lowest towards the corners away from the inlet and outlet. To me, this says that the flow has stagnated at the corners and those parts are not effectively exchanging heat.

That's just my experience, others may have different findings. : )
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:33 PM   #141
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^^ I like it. I also know people that swear by oil coolers in some type of series. Most of the aftermarket SC heat exchanger makers build them like mini intercoolers, however. Probably a good part of that is due to ease of fabrication.
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:40 AM   #142
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Off topic, but has anyone used the existing AC system to cool the water? I'm thinking like a high pressure/low pressure chiller. Obviously using water alone wouldn't work in a system like this due to freezing, and that means you lose the thermal conductivity of water as well. A 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and water may be the best idea (propylene glycol is less thermally conductive IIRC) due to its thermal conductivity and relatively non-corrosive nature. Utilizing the existing pump and possibly removing the cabin AC should keep power loss to a minimum, especially on a heavily modified engine. The other thing I see is an issue with the JWAC/water-air intercooler. Obviously if you lose thermal conductivity properties of the fluid, you must increase size. I'm thinking maybe 2.5-3 times as large.

Also, why not utilize some existing engine system to pump the water? Hydraulic motor running off the lubrication system? The only issue I see is that flow will increase with engine RPM. You don't necessarily want excessive flow because the cooling fluid needs time to absorb intake heat. A variable flow control valve should solve the issue and I don't see how an aftermarket EMS wouldn't be able to control it.

Pardon my thinking out loud, but this thread really got me thinking about reducing IAT's. I know that some people are going to say you're better off using a nitrous or water sprayer or something of the sort, but I don't want to discuss something already in use today, I want to discuss something that, feasible or not, could advance the industry.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:09 PM   #143
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Off topic, but has anyone used the existing AC system to cool the water? .

peltier coolers and a thermostat on the tank would be far easier, simpler, less complicated and work better

the reason things like this arent done are that they are way too complex and failure prone,,,which is why air/liquid intercoolers arent used much on production vehicles
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:20 PM   #144
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Killerchiller. Works, proven technology. Complex.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:32 AM   #145
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peltier coolers and a thermostat on the tank would be far easier, simpler, less complicated and work better

the reason things like this arent done are that they are way too complex and failure prone,,,which is why air/liquid intercoolers arent used much on production vehicles
The Peltier to cool any sizable quantity of water would be huge, expensive, and draw a ton of power. You do not seem to understand the amount of heat that must be shed nor the operation of Peltier coolers. You would have to cool a giant heatsink on the hot side of that Peltier! These things aren't efficient either, to drop say 10 degrees on one side of a Peltier you would have an increase on the other of more than 10 and probably closer to 20. Hard enough to cool a CPU with these things, doing it with as much heat as a turbo produces would be nutz. Peltier move heat and are good for tight areas but not an engine intercooler...
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:50 AM   #146
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Scotty's talking about a peltier to cool the water in an AWIC system, not to use it as an intercooler.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:55 AM   #147
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Scotty's talking about a peltier to cool the water in an AWIC system, not to use it as an intercooler.
I understood exactly what he was talking about. What, you think that there's less demand to cool the water than there is to directly cool the intercooler? Heat is heat. The first time I water cooled a CPU that had a Peltier waaaay back I learned some pretty interesting lessons and turbos put the heat output of a CPU to shame. I've also tuned cars with air water systems running ice - it's flat out amazing how quickly a bag of ice is turned into hot water but awesome to see dew form on an intake and vapor come out of the BOV. Given room and capacity I really like water intercoolers but don't kid yourself on the amount of heat we're talking about, a Peltier would be quickly overwhelmed and if you had enough of them to come close to enough cooling capacity the alternator would go up in smoke. Don't forget you have to cool the hot side of a Peltier as well and everything I said about their inefficiency makes that a gigantic challenge. Figure at least 1.25 times the heat of what you're trying to cool comes off the back of a Peltier and that's conservative - very conservative.

There HAVE been systems that used the AC compressor for intercooling, Ford used one on one of their show Mustangs as I recall. They chilled a reservoir and it could be used for short bursts "on demand" if memory serves. It was only good for short bursts. I think, but am not sure, that Mercedes has also done something with freon intercoolers with some of their supercharged cars. Heat is heat though and all you end up doing is moving it from one place to another, it has to be radiated so long pulls are tough. At least with water you can up the capacity to sink heat with a larger water tank and ice works for drag racing. Weight is a problem though...
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Old 06-08-2014, 07:47 PM   #148
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I understood exactly what he was talking about. What, you think that there's less demand to cool the water than there is to directly cool the intercooler? Heat is heat. The first time I water cooled a CPU that had a Peltier waaaay back I learned some pretty interesting lessons and turbos put the heat output of a CPU to shame. I've also tuned cars with air water systems running ice - it's flat out amazing how quickly a bag of ice is turned into hot water but awesome to see dew form on an intake and vapor come out of the BOV. Given room and capacity I really like water intercoolers but don't kid yourself on the amount of heat we're talking about, a Peltier would be quickly overwhelmed and if you had enough of them to come close to enough cooling capacity the alternator would go up in smoke. Don't forget you have to cool the hot side of a Peltier as well and everything I said about their inefficiency makes that a gigantic challenge. Figure at least 1.25 times the heat of what you're trying to cool comes off the back of a Peltier and that's conservative - very conservative. There HAVE been systems that used the AC compressor for intercooling, Ford used one on one of their show Mustangs as I recall. They chilled a reservoir and it could be used for short bursts "on demand" if memory serves. It was only good for short bursts. I think, but am not sure, that Mercedes has also done something with freon intercoolers with some of their supercharged cars. Heat is heat though and all you end up doing is moving it from one place to another, it has to be radiated so long pulls are tough. At least with water you can up the capacity to sink heat with a larger water tank and ice works for drag racing. Weight is a problem though...
Yes, it would require less energy to cool the water rather than the intercooler. There is a heat exchanger between the intercooler and reservoir to provide cooling.

Anyways, it'll be cheaper, easier and less complex to use the existing A/C system.
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Old 06-13-2014, 10:26 PM   #149
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Yes, it would require less energy to cool the water rather than the intercooler. There is a heat exchanger between the intercooler and reservoir to provide cooling.

Anyways, it'll be cheaper, easier and less complex to use the existing A/C system.
So.... Less energy to cool indirectly than directly? It would seem you don't understand the physics involved. Peltiers aren't going to be a good way to go here for all of the reasons I've already outlined.

The AC seems a good way to go but I don't think it'll be continuous cooling, don't forget the load from the compressor when it's running and it won't like high RPM.
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Old 06-15-2014, 10:02 PM   #150
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It cools the water down below ambient while you are cruising around, obviously it won't work at wot because the ecu disables the ac clutch. It would be akin to having an $800 endless bag of ice and would be awesome if you daily your car. I already sit at 6* above ambient and as soon as I spray meth it drops it 20* or more below ambient. If I already had the turbo I want I would be putting this in my car right now. Got a spot picked out for it and everything. Peltiers burn out quick if you can't keep them cool and they draw a lot of power which would require a larger alt. feasible for me since I already have one, but not a lot of people are willing to drop $600 for a 270A alt. on top of that peltiers are suuuuuper inefficient. I already use my ac when it's hot so why not...
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