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Old 02-22-2013, 04:18 PM   #26
spaceywilly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
I drove a 991S with PDK and it was great. Still haven't driven a manual 991 to compare, but I see why people are moving away from manuals.
It's still one more separation between the driver and the mechanical operation of the car. It used to be that the controls of a car operated some mechanical device which then communicated back to you what was going on with the car. These days, the controls of the car become inputs to a computer, which then operates the mechanics of the car and decides what to feed back to you. The engineers and computers might do a great job of tricking you into thinking you are the one driving the car, but something is always lost in the transaction. There is something lost going from the cable throttle and hydraulic steering in my WRX to the electronic throttle and steering in my BRZ. Sure it is still a very communicative car, but the more you remove the mechanical elements of driving a car, the less involving it becomes and eventually you are just a passenger in a 4 wheeled robot. They might be able to program these transmissions to give you ultra fast shifts and throttle blips on downshifts, but at the end of the day you are still just pushing buttons on a computer, and not actually doing the driving.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:20 PM   #27
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Pretty much everybody who likes manuals admits they are worse technically, but are more fun to drive. Im in that group.

There is another more important issue for us enthusisests though. I am the kind of person who would buy something like a used 911 or a used cayman s. I am also the kind of person who would take it to a bunch of autocrosses, track days, hell maybe even a drag race. Many of you guys are like me in this regard.


However, PDK is not an option for cheapskates like us that like to have post depreciation fun. I can imagine the cost of replaceing dual concentric clutches in a modern/future porsche. It is easy enough to replace the clutch in a normal manual.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:25 PM   #28
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At the end of the day they are doing it or will do it for one reason...
"Because F U that's why"...

Jk...

My 2 cents are that I believe they just want to flow with the competition. If they did it, why I can't? ?? At the end of the day if you want a Porsche, auto or stick, u will buy the porsche, but if you want a stick, then you will look elsewhere. Me as an Example: if I want an evo, I'll be getting a gsr and if I want a gtr, then I'll be getting an r33. Again people this is my opinion. Im not trying to shove it down your throat or up your aas.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:27 PM   #29
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I have a way to solve this whole "autos are better than manuals from a performance standpoint" thing. Just make all manuals sequential gear boxes where you only use the clutch from a start .
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
I have a way to solve this whole "autos are better than manuals from a performance standpoint" thing. Just make all manuals sequential gear boxes where you only use the clutch from a start .
That doesn't change anything. You still can't shift as fast as a dual-clutch box which already has the next gear pre-engaged. Hell, you can't shift as fast as a single clutch box that's using hydraulic or electric actuators to move the forks.


You don't need a clutch to shift with a traditional manual for that matter, once moving. Although I wouldn't recommend it...(unless it's a dogbox, of course).


What you need to cure the problem is a return to driving as a romantic thing, a sport, something to be enjoyed. Hard to do with traffic/traffic laws today...

And hard to do with people like you out there, knocking cars that try to get back to driving roots, because they're not fast enough for you.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:54 PM   #31
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The 911 has turned into a luxo barge, but at least the Cayman still had some soul. Oh well, it was nice knowing you Porsche
Luxo barge?? Yeaaahhhhh no. The new 991 S is faster around the Ring than the 997 GT3 RS. The 991 weighs the same as the prior 997 GT3 RS as well, which represents a HUGE weight drop vs the prior 997 911. Luxo barge not found.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #32
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I don't think manuals will completely die off but probably only be available in base model economy cars to keep costs low
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
Luxo barge?? Yeaaahhhhh no. The new 991 S is faster around the Ring than the 997 GT3 RS. The 991 weighs the same as the prior 997 GT3 RS as well, which represents a HUGE weight drop vs the prior 997 911. Luxo barge not found.
It's huge
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=431650

As for the lap times, that fits right into the whole manual vs auto argument. Faster is not always better.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:33 PM   #34
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I don't think manuals will completely die off but probably only be available in base model economy cars to keep costs low
I'm even surprised that MTs are still offered in bargain base models today. In the past, more people drove MTs for performance but also for the value and incentive of higher mpg over the ATs. ATs where considered more "luxurious" but came at a cost. While ATs still cost more today from a MSRP and new technology cost point of view, the shear quantity of ATs that are made and sold (and because most ATs get better mpgs) should make producing a basic MT a wash.

The bargain base MT only idea seems like an old age American perception that car companies have. In my opinion, most people today interested in MTs do it for some performance or personal "feel" point of view and less about "value". For most, I don't see paying the extra $1k for an AT being such a burden as it once was and probably a benefit based on how cars are packaged these days.

Considering how MT take is so low anyways, lets consider the new Forester. Putting aside profit margins, how would total MT sales differ if the F2.5i was only available in a CVT and the FXT was offered in CVT and 6MT? And what if manufacturers started charging more for the MT over the AT/CVT option in more performance oriented applications? Note: I don't know these answers and like to hear other's thoughts. I'm not against ATs or DCTs.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:40 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post

Porsche you disappoint.
Why disappoint? They have to do, for the business, what is best. 80% of buyers choose the auto. Next year it may be 90% and after that? Once it gets to a point, how much sense does it make to produce a car "no one" wants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
It's huge
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=431650

As for the lap times, that fits right into the whole manual vs auto argument. Faster is not always better.
There are a couple other threads FULL of arguements about this...
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #36
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I'm even surprised that MTs are still offered in bargain base models today. In the past, more people drove MTs for performance but also for the value and incentive of higher mpg over the ATs. ATs where considered more "luxurious" but came at a cost. While ATs still cost more today from a MSRP and new technology cost point of view, the shear quantity of ATs that are made and sold (and because most ATs get better mpgs) should make producing a basic MT a wash.

The bargain base MT only idea seems like an old age American perception that car companies have. In my opinion, most people today interested in MTs do it for some performance or personal "feel" point of view and less about "value". For most, I don't see paying the extra $1k for an AT being such a burden as it once was and probably a benefit based on how cars are packaged these days.

Considering how MT take is so low anyways, lets consider the new Forester. Putting aside profit margins, how would total MT sales differ if the F2.5i was only available in a CVT and the FXT was offered in CVT and 6MT? And what if manufacturers started charging more for the MT over the AT/CVT option in more performance oriented applications? Note: I don't know these answers and like to hear other's thoughts. I'm not against ATs or DCTs.
I agree 100%. Manual is no longer an option chosen because you want a car as cheap as possible, but it's an option people who like cars (i.e. enthusiasts) want. These enthusiasts care about their cars and would spend enough money to buy a mid to upper level trim, especially if it's a more powerful drivetrain.

The 2014 Forester is a great example. The 6-speed should have been on the FXT models. The 2.5i models, especially the very basic 2.5i, are going to be used by a soccer mom who doesn't care if it's got a turbo or a stickshift. On the other hand, the FXT's buyer is probably an aging enthusiast who wants a compromise (quick car with the turbo, but can haul his family around). Which is where the 6-speed would be a good option.

I look at a lot of cars that have been released in the last few years and the stickshift seems to always be on the bottom. For example, the new Fusion has a pretty cool EcoBoost setup but the stickshift is only on the 1.6L EcoBoost if I'm remembering correctly. No enthusiast will drive that anemic car, the 2.0L is what they want. Or 6-speed + 2.0L + AWD. That combo doesn't exist for the Fusion, to my surprise (or not to my surprise).
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch18 View Post
I mean safer for the car.

A manual can shift from fourth to third and blow the engine.

A manual can be driven poorly and trash a clutch.

A manual can grind gears...
Yes all of that is true if you are a ham fisted moron. Do you wonder why people with manuals come off as claiming to have more skill. These things require a tiny bit of finesse to avoid. I mean a tiny bit. These skills are what make driving enjoyable (IMHO). They are not rocket science, but they do require attention to what you are doing. Let me say that again. They REQUIRE attention to what you are doing. You are involved. You are an active participant in making the car go other than mashing the go pedal.

What you are saying is that a manual requires thought and skill from the driver and for that it is a bad thing? We come from two opposite ends of the spectrum here. I want to think for myself, and make decisions, about what I want my car to do. My Datsun is a beautiful example of this. To some extent my VW as well, although it is very much 'monitored'

I can program a robot to paint a picasso perfectly every time. But it would lack that human touch, and that little bit of imperfection that makes it special.

The decision desire a manual is an emotional one for sure.
The decision to offer one or not comes down to the decision to build cars that are faster or cars that are more involving. Since you cannot easily put a metric on 'fun and involving' and you can put on one Ring times and 0-60 PDK have grown in popularity.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:33 PM   #38
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991S with PDK was fun to drive. I imagine with the upgraded big paddles that it would be even better (small ones on steering wheel were my only gripe).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
It's still one more separation between the driver and the mechanical operation of the car. It used to be that the controls of a car operated some mechanical device which then communicated back to you what was going on with the car. These days, the controls of the car become inputs to a computer, which then operates the mechanics of the car and decides what to feed back to you. The engineers and computers might do a great job of tricking you into thinking you are the one driving the car, but something is always lost in the transaction. There is something lost going from the cable throttle and hydraulic steering in my WRX to the electronic throttle and steering in my BRZ. Sure it is still a very communicative car, but the more you remove the mechanical elements of driving a car, the less involving it becomes and eventually you are just a passenger in a 4 wheeled robot. They might be able to program these transmissions to give you ultra fast shifts and throttle blips on downshifts, but at the end of the day you are still just pushing buttons on a computer, and not actually doing the driving.
I disagree 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
Luxo barge?? Yeaaahhhhh no. The new 991 S is faster around the Ring than the 997 GT3 RS. The 991 weighs the same as the prior 997 GT3 RS as well, which represents a HUGE weight drop vs the prior 997 911. Luxo barge not found.
991 is huge.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post

991 is huge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post

It's huge
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=431650

As for the lap times, that fits right into the whole manual vs auto argument. Faster is not always better.
You guys are missing the point.

Typically with cars, when they get larger they also gain weight. This is NOT the case with the 991. They increased the size/wheel base and dropped about 250lbs from the car. That's unheard of. As I said before, lux barge not found. They improved handling added power and lost a huge amount of weight.......how can you complain?

Regarding the link. Yes the 991 is physically larger........but it weighs the same amount as the 993 despite being forced to meet tons of safety regulations that the 993 didn't need to. Remove those regulations and the 991 would lose a TON of weight.

Every other company is gaining weight. Ferrari etc are all putting on 300lbs+, the 458 is a pig compared to the 991. Porsche is the only one focused on cutting weight while adding power.

I wish Subaru would follow this idea, instead the STi continues to gain weight, become soft and see no increase in power over 10yrs......that's just sad. Talk about a lux barge.....STi fits that minus the lux.

Last edited by LIQUIDSK8S; 02-22-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:18 PM   #40
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I can't even afford a 5 year old Porsche so I should be good for a while.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:33 PM   #41
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I would never spend the coin to buy a Porsche.

But the slow, prevalant, anesthetization of cars may be part of the reason I just bought a new Kawasaki Concours 14 a couple of hours ago... .
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:01 PM   #42
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A thread on a BMW forum about 911s getting bigger? What has this world come to, have any of them ever seen a 3-series in person or taken a glance at it's curb weight?

Like the article says, 80% of buyers are already going for the PDK, so at some point spending the money to develop a manual becomes a waste.

Says that semi-automatic gearboxes are too easy and enjoy the skill of shifting
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scumbag Porsche critics
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Avoids pre-G50 transmission cars like the plague

Want a Porsche with a transmission that requires skill? Try one with a 915 or 901 gearbox.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #43
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A thread on a BMW forum about 911s getting bigger? What has this world come to, have any of them ever seen a 3-series in person or taken a glance at it's curb weight?

Like the article says, 80% of buyers are already going for the PDK, so at some point spending the money to develop a manual becomes a waste.

Says that semi-automatic gearboxes are too easy and enjoy the skill of shifting
-
scumbag Porsche critics
-
Avoids pre-G50 transmission cars like the plague

Want a Porsche with a transmission that requires skill? Try one with a 915 or 901 gearbox.
Exactly. A BMW forum criticizing the weight of the 991 vs 993 while their M3 weighs 800+lbs more than a E36 or earlier M3, meanwhile the 991 weighs the same as a 993 Porsche from 18yrs ago.

Name us a company that has reduced weight and added power.........it is basically nonexistent apart from Porsche.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:29 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richde View Post

Want a Porsche with a transmission that requires skill? Try one with a 915 or 901 gearbox.
I can attest to that. Yikes, when I first drove my 914 with the 901 side-shift tranny, all I can think is "what the heck is wrong here". It definitely takes some skill. Well, part of the problem was I found out first gear was completely shreaded, which is a common problem with the 901's. The Subaru 5MT feels like absolute silk by comparison.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:00 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post

I can attest to that. Yikes, when I first drove my 914 with the 901 side-shift tranny, all I can think is "what the heck is wrong here". It definitely takes some skill. Well, part of the problem was I found out first gear was completely shreaded, which is a common problem with the 901's. The Subaru 5MT feels like absolute silk by comparison.
Even the 997 GT3 took some skill for the 2-3 shift. It was very easy to miss that shift if you weren't precise.

Last edited by LIQUIDSK8S; 02-23-2013 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:17 AM   #46
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As I have gone through a gambit of cars through out the years I have two types I now prefer For everyday I like a car that can be driven without much thought but fun when I am in the mood. For the joy of driving I want one that has as much involvement as possible while still being reliable, and could possibly hurt itself or me if I screw up.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:40 AM   #47
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I went from a manual 5 speed WRX (later converted to 6 speed), then to 4 different VW/Audi's with DSG (last one had a DSG tune.) Now I'm back in two manual cars (Cayman S and Golf R.)

I thought I was going to hate going back to stick after getting spoiled by the DSG. Yes it is faster and easier, no doubt. But the feeling of ripping a perfect heel-to-toe downshift in the Cayman entering a turn is electric!

as far as my wife is concerned she'd like to get a PDK on the next Porsche. My feelings wouldn't be hurt with a PDK either. It is brilliant!
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:05 AM   #48
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you know OLD ppl buy these cars and they are lazy and rich so by the time we reach that stage we will want to rest the left foot and the right hand
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:10 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post

I wish Subaru would follow this idea, instead the STi continues to gain weight, become soft and see no increase in power over 10yrs......that's just sad. Talk about a lux barge.....STi fits that minus the lux.

These statements are entertaining to me. The car has gotten faster since it came out. The 06 got a couple tweaks that made it marginally faster. The 08's sport VDC and SI Drive made it faster than previous(so what if it was softer, I say), and the 11's suspension upgrade made it even faster and became the fastest STI they ever made(and took away that softness). Your just mad it hasn't made leaps and bounds over 10 years(understandably). Just don't make it sound like it went backwards.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:51 AM   #50
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These statements are entertaining to me. The car has gotten faster since it came out. The 06 got a couple tweaks that made it marginally faster. The 08's sport VDC and SI Drive made it faster than previous(so what if it was softer, I say), and the 11's suspension upgrade made it even faster and became the fastest STI they ever made(and took away that softness). Your just mad it hasn't made leaps and bounds over 10 years(understandably). Just don't make it sound like it went backwards.
Quoted for blind ignorance. In 10 years all the Sti has done, in regards to increased performance, is add nifty buttons and vdc? And little bits of suspension pieces? It has the same exact power train since 2004. I'm sure you will say, but it has a new vf666 turbo and yada yada...

You are an absolute fantastic salesman. You make G. Cardone proud. I bet you even have his 85 closes cd.
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