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Old 08-13-2012, 06:38 PM   #2626
vicious_fishes
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Yes - cranking tables. Try bumping the IPW up 10% from 68* down to add more fuel during cranking. Repeat this a few times if you need to and see if it becomes more willing to start.
actually it seems to be running absolutely pig rich and flooding like a bastard, but thanks for the tip
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:34 PM   #2627
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Yes - cranking tables. Try bumping the IPW up 10% from 68* down to add more fuel during cranking. Repeat this a few times if you need to and see if it becomes more willing to start.

For all 4 tables? a-d?
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:30 AM   #2628
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Yeah, you'd want to adjust all tables.

What size injectors did you put in? Did the guy that made your current tune scale these cranking tables down already or not? Normally you would reduce the cranking PW for bigger injectors running on gas by the value of old scaling / new scaling. For E85 you want to raise the PW back up quite a bit for lower ECTs and keep them down for higher ECTs (for hot starts).

As an example 1000s usually like about 20% more than stock PW for 68* and down, 10% around 86* and 30% less for higher ECTs.

If you think its too rich then try lowering it but usually E85 needs to be sprayed pretty rich for cold starts.

How cold is it where you are?
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:53 AM   #2629
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hey thanks for the reply... not very cold, coldest so far is low 70's high 60's but I noticed when the engine is cold the car will fire briefly and stall. I try to start it agian and it will crank and crank then I give it some throttle and it will start and putter here and there for a minute or 2 and its fine. What does 'ECT' stand for? engine coolant temp? Its an 04 wrx with dw850s injectors. I dont believe he touched the cranking tables. I added 20% from 86 deg and down since I have been having trouble with temps as high as that. Am going to flash tomorrow and give the 20% a try. Hot start is perfect though. Now I have been reading that people are also modifying the tip in and warm up enrichment...is this necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Yeah, you'd want to adjust all tables.

What size injectors did you put in? Did the guy that made your current tune scale these cranking tables down already or not? Normally you would reduce the cranking PW for bigger injectors running on gas by the value of old scaling / new scaling. For E85 you want to raise the PW back up quite a bit for lower ECTs and keep them down for higher ECTs (for hot starts).

As an example 1000s usually like about 20% more than stock PW for 68* and down, 10% around 86* and 30% less for higher ECTs.

If you think its too rich then try lowering it but usually E85 needs to be sprayed pretty rich for cold starts.

How cold is it where you are?
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:25 AM   #2630
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Yeah, you'd want to adjust all tables.

What size injectors did you put in? Did the guy that made your current tune scale these cranking tables down already or not? Normally you would reduce the cranking PW for bigger injectors running on gas by the value of old scaling / new scaling. For E85 you want to raise the PW back up quite a bit for lower ECTs and keep them down for higher ECTs (for hot starts).

As an example 1000s usually like about 20% more than stock PW for 68* and down, 10% around 86* and 30% less for higher ECTs.

If you think its too rich then try lowering it but usually E85 needs to be sprayed pretty rich for cold starts.

How cold is it where you are?
mornings are ususally only a little over freezing.

got stuck into it tonight and leaned it out. wouldn't you know it starts!

it had to be leaned out QUITE a bit. went from -55 to -80 or something along those lines... though i did triple the size of the factory injectors with the new ones soooooooo. as you said, hot was actually too lean as a result and i sorted the idle out as well. much richer = no more hunting. that was from about -55 to -29 iirc.

tomorrow it's time to sort out the lurching problem. any more than about 30% throttle = lurching and jerking and carrying on, making hills a no-go.

hopefully it's just the stock ecu getting really cranky about being pig rich there too. but this is all simply being done so i can burn this tank of E85. there's only one E85 bowser in my area, only 1 4wd dyno and the dyno owner wants a small fortune to tune on it himself and won't hire it out per hour or whatever to anyone else. i do however have a map from my exact same setup (i run a supercharged kit) tuned by the kit makers that i'll be loading in and tweaking from there. with any luck it might just need a 2:1 fpr to get the richer air/fuels i want for the track, and we're set.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 08-14-2012 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:52 AM   #2631
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So has anyone tried this on stock injectors?
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:05 AM   #2632
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plenty of people have...usually the reason people go ahead and upgrade from the stock is because the stock injectors tend to not have enough headroom to switch to e85 without maxing out the IDC's. if you are running the stock TD04 on your 07 wrx, odds are you probably have JUST enough headroom to make the switch. when i say JUST enough i mean that you are going to have ZERO headroom later on.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:16 AM   #2633
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Gotchya, thanks!
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:24 PM   #2634
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Best source of info I've found so far : ) Thanks!Merry Christmas
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:22 PM   #2635
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Default E85 STI Pinks Scaler

I've been running E85 for a little over a year. 2003 WRX EJ20, MODs are as follows. 3" Catless Downpipe to Tip, APS Uppipe, Walboro 255 Fuel Pump, 3 Port Grimmspeed BCS, 4 Bar Omni MAP Sensor, Silicone Intake Hoses, and the V2 COBB AP. I self tune, currently using the MAF sensor as the primary, MAP only to Monitor Boost; running 23-26psi off launch. If i run through the rpms on 3rd and 4th I hit 28-30psi. I shortend the Wastegate Acuator arm as short as possible, don't feel like buying a higher PSI Actuator Assembly. Ps. No Knock, Track/Daily and I've run this for about 40k miles with no leaks, issues, or oil consumption.


My main question is what is the propper scale for STI Pinks, E85 and the Stock Turbo TD04-13T. I like the stock scale of 6442 with the E85 but the AP went to 7% AFR Correction on the winter blend here in Miami, FL. Currently, I'm using 6800, which is running rich, I have a 1.2% correction in the AFR Corr. D and a 5-6% Correction in AFR Corr. A. What is the propper Scale for E85 and Pinks???? If know one knows how do I apply the percentages to the scale...already tried Multipling them and the values are too far off. Any Ideas?
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:47 PM   #2636
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Sorry to open up an old thread. Okay I need a new thred, I'm old to Subie's new too NASIOC. I need tunning info for E85 & STI Pinks 565cc on a 2.0 Buggeye.

As for E85, production cost are mainly in transportation, can't see how it cost more to make, when all you have to do is distill it, it's Alcohol. I also love the MPG due to the turbo catching more fumes to spool. I get about 25-26mpg on 93 Octane in the city, and about 23-24mpg on E85. Currently here in Miami, it's 3.45$ for a gallon of E85 vs 3.99$ for a gallon of Premium (93 Oct) Thanks, any help is greatly appreciated.

My bad, tried to refresh didn't see my old post and thought it was deleted due to posting in the wrong thread, cause I couldn't find one on the Info i needed. Admin, please help and delete this second post.

Last edited by WRXVishnueStg_2; 02-10-2013 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Thought my original post got deleted.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #2637
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Sorry to open up an old thread. Okay I need a new thred, I'm old to Subie's new too NASIOC. I need tunning info for E85 & STI Pinks 565cc on a 2.0 Buggeye.

As for E85, production cost are mainly in transportation, can't see how it cost more to make, when all you have to do is distill it, it's Alcohol. I also love the MPG due to the turbo catching more fumes to spool. I get about 25-26mpg on 93 Octane in the city, and about 23-24mpg on E85. Currently here in Miami, it's 3.45$ for a gallon of E85 vs 3.99$ for a gallon of Premium (93 Oct) Thanks, any help is greatly appreciated.

My bad, tried to refresh didn't see my old post and thought it was deleted due to posting in the wrong thread, cause I couldn't find one on the Info i needed. Admin, please help and delete this second post.
You might get more help with E85 related things by posting in the E85 Army thread but STi pinks really aren't big enough for E85, even on a TD04. For ethanol blends around 70% which is all we had last year in Iowa, I was finding that injector scaling need to be about 74% of gasoline scaling. That scaling applied to 565's would put them around 420 which really isn't going to be enough to run higher boost on the TD04 and keep your AFRs reasonable. I have a couple guys running 650's on E85 2.0l TD04 setups and they get to around 85% IDC running 23/24 psi tapering to 16/17. Again, this is on E70. If we see higher blends like we used to, they are going to need all of that extra headroom.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. Good work on your fuel economy. How lean are you running at cruise and what kind of timing to get those numbers?

You should also post a video of taking the TD04 up to 28 - 30 psi. I've never seen that before.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:27 AM   #2638
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I haven't had a problem with it, I believe here in FL we have a higher blend of eathonal (not positive). I haven't had any issues. I run NGK Copper heads, looking to swap with 1 Step Cold Densos', currently my AFR reads 14.6-.8 on idle and 11.2 on WOT. Take note that that is not lean, because these values are from the AccessPort. The computer really only sees in lamdba value, and does not know you are using e85. I've also verified this with the lamdba values. I'm pretty sure that after a 25% - 30% Paper Correction it's about an 8.4 - 7.9. I don't think it need be richer than that right??? Also, keep in mind I have a walboro 255. The Intercooler hose behind the TMIC also keeps busting on me, stock blew at 24 psi, after about a year. Put some Silicone one's I got off ebay, those popped at about 26 psi. I have a picture of the AP Screen breaking 30psi, but it was on a spike on 4th, ran it from 2,400 rpm. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/imag0479q.jpg/ But the most of truely seen at the track was on a launch I hit 26 psi. It's deffinitly the actuator spring, because it clearly wasn't ment to run such high pressure. I believe its a 5~8 psi spring. I'm looking into ordering a stiff spring between a 1.5 and 1.8 bar not sure which one to get still. I know like that I can run very low WDC on my tune. But yea original question was what value do I use in the Fuel Injector Scale, originally had the 420cc injector scale 6442 but it ran to lean, currently I've had a lot of success at 6800 with a A/F Learning Correction of 8.4% after months of driving. A/F Correction D is .2% and Correction A is 7.2% B 4.3% and C 3.5%, on idle I read a 1 lambda on my wide band at idle and a .75 on WOT. Will Post video soon, next track day or perhaps if I have time I go look for a nive open road; which is hard to find here in Miami with all the traffic

Last edited by WRXVishnueStg_2; 02-26-2013 at 12:38 AM. Reason: Extending
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:56 AM   #2639
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I have a VF30 from my first WRX, but once I started playing with E85 I fell in love . LMAO, I love the cost and performance gains I got, also the gas millage is very good thanks to the extra fuems spooling the turbo. My 93 Oct tune I'm making about 26 mpg in the city on e85 its about 23~24 mpg if you drive correctly. When stepping on it, I do notice it waste much faster than E10 93 Oct. Plus I've been reading up on how good the VF30 holds up with the Group N Antilag, I just figured the little TD04 shouldn't have to much a difference in build quality. It's been 45K miles that I've been running higher than 20psi, I've always used 0-w40 Mobi1 oil or 10w-40 RP, currently switching to AMSOIL. I also always use a RP or Pure1 Filter and change oil religiously every 4k. RP 75-w90 in the diff and tranny. So far 0 isssues other then the stupid TMIC hose that keeps popping, looking to get an oil seperator next; cause I have a feeling it's from Blow By oil that sits on the plastic/silicone that eats through them espcially with the wear of such high boost pressure. But yea, turbo so far No leaks, No issues, turbo seems to hold up just fine, when propperly fueled. Had a friend that had a TD04-13G i believe on his evo, which he complained gave out early, but every time he ran 30psi using an MBC the turbo would be glowing red, i have a feeling it's from running in a lean condition which would overtime mess up the turbo seals. He was running a 12.1 AFR, which I've heard many say is around wear you'll see the Most power, including another friend of mine's tuner he uses a 12.1 in all his naturally asperated Mustang GT Tunes. I feel that that's to lean for a turbo charged car running such high pressure.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:40 PM   #2640
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I mean this in the absolute nicest and friendliest way possible...


YOU NEED TO DO ALOT MORE READING ABOUT AFR'S, TURBO'D CARS, AND E85


...some of your stuff is on point, but ALOT of what you just posted here isn't.


Also, just fyi, the afr on the AP is reading at the front O2 sensor, which is pretty inaccurate. The front O2 sensor showing 11.2 could TRULY be 12.2 or 10.2...you really should be getting this reading from a wideband sensor instead of the front sensor.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:16 AM   #2641
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can winter blend e85 cause p0171 cel?
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:30 AM   #2642
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I wouldn't think so... If anything winter blend E85 on a car set up for summer blend E85 will run more rich.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:24 PM   #2643
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^ this
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:24 PM   #2644
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i was tuned for high 11s afr wot now its in the 9s wot.. can the winter blend cause that to run that rich or something else?

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Old 03-05-2013, 02:32 PM   #2645
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i was tuned for high 11s afr wot now its in the 9s wot.. can the winter blend cause that to run that rich or something else?
No, that sounds more like a boost leak or very low ethanol content.

To give you a rough idea, 80% ethanol tuned to high 11's should be in the low 11's when its around 70% ethanol.

I would check for boost leaks and if you don't find any, I would try to test the ethanol content from the station you filled up at.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:58 PM   #2646
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No, that sounds more like a boost leak or very low ethanol content.

To give you a rough idea, 80% ethanol tuned to high 11's should be in the low 11's when its around 70% ethanol.

I would check for boost leaks and if you don't find any, I would try to test the ethanol content from the station you filled up at.
thanks man
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:55 PM   #2647
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Well already figured out what I wanted to know. On STI "Pink" Injectors the scale for regular gas is 5120, which for e85 is 6912. If I'm not mistaken the front O2 in the Up Pipe is a wide band. May not be in the best spot but it's close enough. I don't real feel like the injector is leaning on me and none of my data logs show that happening. I'm still saving up to swap the spring out on the wastegate for possibly a 1 bar Spring. If it starts leaning out I'll save up for a set of Dynammic 1000cc.

I've been using this for about a year now.
5120*1.35=6912
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:57 AM   #2648
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Not really sure I fully understand your issue, but I believe you are saying that you are currently leaning out. You went the wrong way with your scaling (I am assuming your numbers are missing the decimal...512.0 and 691.2...correct me if I am wrong)...you need to lower your injector scaling for E85, not raise it. That is why you would be leaning out.

The front O2 sensor isn't really a wideband because of it's placement, it is more like a narrow band sensor. If you move it behind the turbo, it will perform more accurately and will allow it to perform like a wideband sensor, at least down to about 11.3:1...below that it doesn't really work.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:18 AM   #2649
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The front O2 sensor isn't really a wideband because of it's placement, it is more like a narrow band sensor.
It's still a wideband, it just doesn't read correctly in boost. A narrowband doesn't read correctly outside of a very tiny range around stoich, that's a big difference, especially if the car isn't running correctly and you're not hitting stoich at low load like you should be. The stock O2 will tell you what you're really running so that you can fix it, a narrowband won't.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:02 AM   #2650
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It's still a wideband, it just doesn't read correctly in boost. A narrowband doesn't read correctly outside of a very tiny range around stoich, that's a big difference, especially if the car isn't running correctly and you're not hitting stoich at low load like you should be. The stock O2 will tell you what you're really running so that you can fix it, a narrowband won't.
True...I was more just trying to explain things as simple as possible.
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