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Old 03-06-2013, 03:59 PM   #7151
juanmedina
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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
roger that buddy. and dang thats still good timing for the green lol. was it safe?
It never blew up, so I guess yes . Like I said those rods had 60k miles and I never had an issue.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:16 PM   #7152
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yeah had to be a good tune then. I know you didnt idle it around everywhere!
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:08 PM   #7153
SW00P_G
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Originally Posted by kpadill2 View Post
What's up guys? The car in question here is mine. I've been sorta unmotivated lately so I appreciate Cameron, who is actually my competition (says a lot about him), for trying to figure out what went wrong here.

We took the car down for end of season, my car hasn't seen a lot of track but it has REALLY gotten beaten on for the small amount of miles. The car was running and had just seen a high mph pull a few days earlier. To all of our absolute complete surprise we found two bent rods. The one cam posted and you'd really have to hold it in your hand to see it in the other rod.

A question that comes to me is when could the rod have folded and how long could it have lasted? Why would the rod fold before any real crushing of the bearing?

I appreciate the good discussion in here about the amount of timing in the tune. We are hoping to have her fired up here in a week.

There was some interesting discussion with Carrillo about this issue. We just received a new design that they had already been working on. I am told they knew exactly how the rod folded when we came to them.

How much boost were you running?
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:13 PM   #7154
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This is a fuel question for dom. When running a series fuel rail setup is it fed in a "U" formation across the alternator head to head or a "Z" formation under the intake manifold?
Z, back to front.

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Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
Expanding on the fuel system lay-out, the series/parallel is heavily dependent on the pump/feed line size correct? same with the pulse dampeners.

Dom please shed some light on this subject for us.
Absolutely. The effect of the pulse is going to depend on the injector size, pulse width, total available pressurized fuel mass, pipe length, pipe diameter etc.
That's one reason why "engineering" a 100% perfect fuel system is beyond the capability of just about any one person who doesn't have a large budget.
As end users and enthusiasts we usually accept that there are always going to be quirks of some sort with our heavily modified, high horsepower density engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I meant that I was running 18-20* at pick torque with my FP green setup. Now I run like 12-13*

I've found an average of 2.5-3* at peak torque more than pump gas is sufficient. Obviously other things affect the octane sensitivity of an engine so it isn't going to be a fixed value for all setups. However, for stock engine VF turbo cars after 3* you don't get an appreciable gain in power. That's really the key. If you gain 10-15hp with 1 degree, that's great. If you gain 5hp with 1*, take it back out. 5hp is not worth the risk and is an indication that you are approaching MBT or a knock threshold.

I would bet that 15-17 would be acceptable on your car, but I don't know all the specs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Looking at my logs I think Jr has my timing at peak tq more like 10-12* with my D25 heads & 9.6:1 CR with 26-27 psi boost.
I always forget your comp ratio is so high. I bet that thing is just a beauty to drive.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:24 PM   #7155
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I ran 17 at peak torque on my PTE 6262 2.5L tune.
After the dyno, While running the 1/4 I bumped the redline timing to around 27 from 23, and picked up 4 mile/hr trap speed

The car was picking up about 15-20 per degree on the dyno. I didn't try and find the threshold.
I stopped at 17. I probably left some meat on the table, but with 100mm bore and eagle rods i did not want to risk it.

The car made 464/445 corrected for June 110 degrees in the dyno room.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:26 PM   #7156
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hmmmm, so you dont like the idea of fuel feed line y'ing into two feed lines feeding the rails from the front. 2 returns y'ing into fpr's return?? mps
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:31 PM   #7157
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I always forget your comp ratio is so high. I bet that thing is just a beauty to drive.
It truly is! I love how responsive it is, it's a rocket on E85 and its rocket on pump just a bit more civilized. It acts like its stock until ya give er then it's like GTFOOTW I saw 25 mpg on a road trip doing 80+ and I saw 22 mpg in an all city tank with plenty of boost around Detroit and nobody drives slow there!

Heading to PnL on Monday to have Jr do a touch up on the tunes and to be fair! He's given me 3 sets of revised maps since the initial dyno tune!!
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:18 PM   #7158
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When I see values like that, I attribute it back to process (steps) and the method used to increase the timing. I could be guessing, but I'm wondering if the tuner selected the load columns above vacuum (all of them) off the basemap and just used the arrow key and went up in increments instead of increasing specific cells and interpolating vertically to smoothe out the points. Did a pull and then noticed the torque increasing in the upper rpms and kept doing it till diminishing returns. It seems that way since all values follow the same slope as the basemap but +9 degrees or so.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:01 PM   #7159
juanmedina
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post




I've found an average of 2.5-3* at peak torque more than pump gas is sufficient. Obviously other things affect the octane sensitivity of an engine so it isn't going to be a fixed value for all setups. However, for stock engine VF turbo cars after 3* you don't get an appreciable gain in power. That's really the key. If you gain 10-15hp with 1 degree, that's great. If you gain 5hp with 1*, take it back out. 5hp is not worth the risk and is an indication that you are approaching MBT or a knock threshold.

I would bet that 15-17 would be acceptable on your car, but I don't know all the specs.
.
We are talking about peak torque right? I am running low timing at peak torque since I have stock 08+ STi rods... they are thicker than the previous STi rods but who knows how much stronger they really are. It makes around 400wtq on the VD dynojet setting 4th gear..

What is an acceptable timing at redline? I am only running 19.5* at 7500rpm with 24-25psi. I imagine around 26*...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z0rr0 View Post
I ran 17 at peak torque on my PTE 6262 2.5L tune.
After the dyno, While running the 1/4 I bumped the redline timing to around 27 from 23, and picked up 4 mile/hr trap speed

The car was picking up about 15-20 per degree on the dyno. I didn't try and find the threshold.
I stopped at 17. I probably left some meat on the table, but with 100mm bore and eagle rods i did not want to risk it.

The car made 464/445 corrected for June 110 degrees in the dyno room.
4mph is around 40-50whp. How much boost where you runing?
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:19 PM   #7160
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I really like your car! Glad you're getting her sorted out and then a better tune! Fellow Killer B header fan!
Hey thank you thank you! We are learning every day and hope to make it another good season. I'm blessed to have a fellow competitor who pushes the limits with us at our blistering altitude and is willing to help us along the way. We hope to offer any help we can back to Cameron as well! I've been keeping my fingers crossed for a gtx4094R to come out!
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:43 PM   #7161
Z0rr0
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post


4mph is around 40-50whp. How much boost where you runing?
Dyno said 26, my aem 3.5 bar said 23 24..
So id say 24.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #7162
juanmedina
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Originally Posted by Z0rr0 View Post
Dyno said 26, my aem 3.5 bar said 23 24..
So id say 24.
you need more boost haha. So what you trapped?
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:46 PM   #7163
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you need more boost haha. So what you trapped?
119.. iirc.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:48 PM   #7164
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I have a 6 speed with no dccd controller. It spun 1st 2nd and mist of 3rd. That cant be good for trap speed.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:48 PM   #7165
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Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
How much boost were you running?
32 psi is really the max that little turbo would push at our altitude.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:44 PM   #7166
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Originally Posted by Z0rr0 View Post
I have a 6 speed with no dccd controller. It spun 1st 2nd and mist of 3rd. That cant be good for trap speed.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but spinning should really help your mph. Means you have more time out there to get moving.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:03 PM   #7167
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

4mph is around 40-50whp. How much boost where you runing?
Pretty sure his Virtual dyno showed big gains like that.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:21 PM   #7168
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

Pretty sure his Virtual dyno showed big gains like that.
Virtual dyno?
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:39 PM   #7169
juanmedina
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Originally Posted by Z0rr0 View Post
Virtual dyno?
http://www.bradbarnhill.com/projects/VirtualDyno/

Great tool if it is used correctly . It has been proven to read to 5% to a real dynojet on the dynojet setting
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:51 PM   #7170
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

http://www.bradbarnhill.com/projects/VirtualDyno/

Great tool if it is used correctly . It has been proven to read to 5% to a real dynojet on the dynojet setting
It's pretty much Juan's favorite thing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #7171
Z0rr0
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Lol. I used virtual dyno. But the tune I was referencing was done on a mustang here in phoenix.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:59 AM   #7172
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Lol. I used virtual dyno. But the tune I was referencing was done on a mustang here in phoenix.
I thought you sent me plots of an airboy. Your power was falling off, I gave you timing advice, you made more power.
Am I confusing those plots with a different car I helped you with?
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:05 AM   #7173
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

I thought you sent me plots of an airboy. Your power was falling off, I gave you timing advice, you made more power.
Am I confusing those plots with a different car I helped you with?
That was the car. My legacy. Those were mustang graphs, your timing advice was spot on.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:14 AM   #7174
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That was the car. My legacy. Those were mustang graphs, your timing advice was spot on.
Gotcha. I see charts all day long.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:25 AM   #7175
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I never put it back on the dyno, but it wouldn't surprise me if it picked up that much.. it certainly felt much more powerful up top with the extra timing.

I have since converted the car back to pump gas and wastegate pressure.

The wifey is driving it now so it didn't really need all that power.

The five o 1400 top feeds sucked. They were okay, but not great on e85, but wouldn't idle or maintain decent afr corrections on pump gas at all.
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