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Old 03-07-2013, 01:51 PM   #1
fredzy
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Default Scion mulling hybrid FR-S? Toyobaru Faimly on the Horizon?

Update:

Tetsuya Tada giving some valuable insight on the twins and their prospects for future offspring, courtesy of Jalopnik. The convertible isn't exactly ready yet, either.

Quote:
How would you like to see a whole family of models spawned from the Scion FR-S/Toyota GT-86/Subaru BRZ like what BMW has done with Mini? If your answer is "hell yes," then you'll be happy to know that Tetsuya Tada, the chief engineer of the Toyobaru, wants that to happen as well.

Tada gave a fascinating interview over at Toyota's official UK blog, in which he said it would be his "dream" to see the GT-86 turn into a whole new lineup of cars. Including, he said, a shooting brake so he can take his dogs along for the ride. (God, that guy is awesome.)

During the development process, Tada said that designers investigated the possibility of a sedan and shooting brake version, but were told to focus on the coupe. Here's what he said:

“It’s just my personal dream that the GT86 could become a family like what BMW has done with the Mini family. I hope that happens. I also have five dogs myself and I would like to have them in the car, so a sports shooting break would be just right.

As for the GT 86 Convertible everyone is so excited about, Tada said "there’s still some way to go before production. We’ve got many engineering challenges and not all of them are solved yet."

Tada also spoke about Toyota's planned collaboration with BMW, which will more than likely result in a new, high-tech sportscar. He said that Toyota learned a lot from working with another company's culture when they made the GT-86 with Subaru, and they hope to do the same with the Germans. He think that beer and sausage will be necessary first.

“At the moment we are struggling, because we are having this really business-like dealing with BMW and we haven’t really been able to get through that barrier so far. Perhaps I need to meet them socially and drink beer and eat sausage together. In fact the one time I felt we went beyond the business-like barrier was when we all went to Oktoberfest and drank beer. That was the one time, when we were drinking together that I thought, these are unexpectedly good people…

See what I mean? Guy's awesome.
http://jalopnik.com/scion-fr-s-boss-...e-mo-453530305

As if this discussion needed to get any more crazy. Lots of interesting stuff here:

Quote:
Toyota is considering launching a range-topping variant of the GT86 (sold as the Scion FR-S in the United States) powered by a hybrid drivetrain.

Speaking with England's Autocar magazine, Toyota chief engineer Tetsuya Tada revealed that designers are already working on the coupe's mid-cycle facelift. In addition to new sheetmetal, the refresh will bring about a more powerful version of the car that will utilize either a turbocharger, a supercharger or a potent hybrid drivetrain to squeeze every last pony out of the flat-four.

"An electric motor assistance solution is possible and it would bring benefits that forced induction does not," said Tada in an interview at the Geneva Motor Show.

If Toyota picks the hybrid route, the gasoline-electric drivetrain will be considerably simpler and cheaper to produce than the one that is found under the skin of the Prius. This will keep the coupe's price within Toyota's target bracket and avoid adding too much weight.

Tada also revealed why Toyota didn't launch a more powerful version of the GT86 and a convertible model immediately after the car made its debut.

"Management considered the GT86 very risky," admitted Tada. "They wanted proof that the '86 coupe would hit its sales target before they would sign off on a convertible. Now that they have the proof, we can begin to think about other development ideas for the car."

If launched, the hybrid-powered FR-S is at least two or three years away.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/scion-mu...brid-fr-s.html
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Last edited by fredzy; 03-13-2013 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Updated
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:10 PM   #2
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Turbo would be preferred.

FRS/BRZ already get decent MPG (~27-28 combined). Throw in a hybrid system and what do you get, 37-38 mpg combined?
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:15 PM   #3
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hybrid wouldn't be bad if it got 50mpg like the prius. You could drive a hybrid that you would actually want to be seen in.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:53 PM   #4
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.

Now a turbo would be a blast. but even that has a weight penatly of sorts.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.

Now a turbo would be a blast. but even that has a weight penatly of sorts.
It defeats the purpose of being a lightweight sports car, but being a hybrid puts it into another class of cars. It'll be the best looking and best handling hybrid (CRZ was total crap).
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #6
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.


Where are you getting 400lbs from?

Civic sedan auto: 2815 lbs
Civic hybrid: 2868 lbs

For the Civic hybrid the battery weighs ~48lbs and the eletric motor weighs ~42lbs.

Last edited by 53x12; 03-07-2013 at 03:19 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #7
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Also just looked online at the Camry hybrid XLE vs the standard XLE and from the weights I could find online it seems the hybrid weighs ~260 lbs heavier. That is for a much larger hybrid system than is needed for the FRS. Something along the lines of the Civic size would make much more sense.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:16 PM   #8
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Can they fit small electric motors on the front? I know the packaging ruled out mechanical AWD, but electric would be entertaining. And more efficient.

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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Where are you getting 400lbs from?

Civic sedan auto: 2815 lbs
Civic hybrid: 2868 lbs

For the Civic hybrid the batter weighs ~48lbs and the eletric motor weighs ~42lbs.
mmm. batter dipped honda.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #9
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Hybrid probably won't be worth it for the cost/benefit aspect, but it will open up the market to people that will only buy a hybrid (because it's green). I'm all for them getting more sales out of the same chassis to reduce costs and allow for faster development.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:30 PM   #10
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I don't think you can make that direct assumption. Many hybrids incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. That may be harder on a car designed to be light.

As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.
Realized that after I posted...failed ninja edit.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:47 PM   #12
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Yeah, 400 lbs was just a swag, but the weight would depend greatly only on what kind of Hybrid system it was. Is a system that can run on pure EV, or will be used to boost performance. A booster type hybrid system could be VERY light indeed. But if you want it to get 75 miles on pure EV then no, it will be very heavy.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:48 PM   #13
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Honda's hybrid system is also very different, they incorporate the electric motor directly mounted onto the main engine. The motor is smaller and lighter. Toyota has the motor completely seperate which adds more weight.

Really the added weight is the battery pack and the electric motor. Depending on the size of the pack, those could weigh alot. The tesla S battery back is massive because it's all electric, the car is the size of a camry but weighs an extremely hefty 4,600lbs due mostly to the battery.

70KWH battery pack weighs 1200lbs and the 42kwh pack weighs about 825lbs for comparison.

At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable. They make electric motors that can be modified to fit between the transmission and engine, or on the back of the transmission. Perhaps they can attach it to the rear end. I also don't think you would lost much efficiency if the system used the VSC to help modulate braking power to the rear when it can, like slowing to a stop at a stoplight.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable.

The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.

I would agree that it completely depends on what kind of hybrid system Toyota would want to put in the FT-86/FRS.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.

I would agree that it completely depends on what kind of hybrid system Toyota would want to put in the FT-86/FRS.
There is absolutely no way the civic has a 20kWH battery, that would make it a FULL plug in hybrid and give the nissan leaf a run for the money, which has a 24kwH battery. There would be no reason to buy the leaf if you could get a civic with nearly the same range but still have a gas engine to back you up. Not to mention the giant cost of a 20kWH battery, which i don't see in the price tag of the civic.

Perhaps you are mistaken in your units. The motor can use 20KW peak but not be able to sustain it. Or perhaps it's a 20WH battery.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:15 PM   #16
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There is absolutely no way the civic has a 20kWH battery, that would make it a FULL plug in hybrid and give the nissan leaf a run for the money, which has a 24kwH battery. There would be no reason to buy the leaf if you could get a civic with nearly the same range but still have a gas engine to back you up. Not to mention the giant cost of a 20kWH battery, which i don't see in the price tag of the civic.

Perhaps you are mistaken in your units. The motor can use 20KW peak but not be able to sustain it. Or perhaps it's a 20WH battery.
Honda has the lithium ion battery listed as 20 kW: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-h...fications.aspx
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:20 PM   #17
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Honda has the lithium ion battery listed as 20 kW: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-h...fications.aspx
Yes, 20KW , not 20KWH, there is a huge difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The battery pack can give a peak output of 20KW(26.8HP), but it can't hold that output for a full hour, which is the equivalent of 20KWH.

That's the equivalent of a man being able to lift a 200lb weight once, but not the same as that man being able to lift 200lbs for an hour.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #18
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Yes, 20KW , not 20KWH, there is a huge difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The battery pack can give a peak output of 20KW(26.8HP), but it can't hold that output for a full hour, which is the equivalent of 20KWH.

That's the equivalent of a man being able to lift a 200lb weight once, but not the same as that man being able to lift 200lbs for an hour.
I don't believe I ever wrote that it had 20 kWH battery. I stated it had a 20 kW battery.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:26 PM   #19
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I would love to see a very fuel efficient version of the frs/brz.

I'm thinking a 1.6 DI motor with a CVT. Fuel economy nearing 40 MPG. I bet there are a ton of people out there that love the looks of the car but don't want to put their child in such a lightweight car with 200 HP.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I don't believe I ever wrote that it had 20 kWH battery. I stated it had a 20 kW battery.
You wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.
Which was in reference to

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Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable.

So yes, in the context of your reply, you did. Also there is no point in doing math for 20KW breaking it down to 2.4lbs per KW. You can have a 20KW battery the size of a lawnmower battery put out 20KW, or the size of a computer tower put out 20KW. What matters is capacity, so your math is pointless otherwise.

I think you did make a mistake and are now backtracking to try and save yourself.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake1050 View Post
I would love to see a very fuel efficient version of the frs/brz.

I'm thinking a 1.6 DI motor with a CVT. Fuel economy nearing 40 MPG. I bet there are a ton of people out there that love the looks of the car but don't want to put their child in such a lightweight car with 200 HP.
wait,

You want a slower version of a BRZ that gets good mileage, why not just buy a miata.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:41 PM   #22
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wait,

You want a slower version of a BRZ that gets good mileage, why not just buy a miata.
Because the Miata does not get 40mpg.

Although the idea that Toyoburu would engineer a smaller engine, get it through all the associated EPA/DOT regulations just to put it in a low-production hybrid version of the FR-S that would cost $30k+ and make only 40mpg is pretty naive.

The 2.0 NA is always going to be the cheaper to buy and cost less over the lifetime of the vehicle for 90% of people. Hybrid in this car would be for tree-humping idiots that don't understand math or science.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:41 PM   #23
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I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"



Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"



Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller.
Agreed, figure out how to stuff that Prius C power-train in the next version.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:53 PM   #25
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A lightweight, acceleration boosting system on the front wheels would probably make this car much more attractive to a lot of people.
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