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Old 03-08-2013, 02:53 AM   #1
stevehnm
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Default Impreza CVT MPG Problem

Other than the fuel economy, this is a great car. However, there has been much discussion in other threads about the fact the CVT does not get the advertised MPG, backed up by this observation:

The fact that Consumer Reports has tested several vehicles that get the same highway mpg, yet are rated consistently lower. Very consistently. The sedan (at CR's 35 mpg) is particularly woeful, as the other cars are rated at 30 +/- 2 MPG EPA highway, yet still get the same mpg in real world testing, with a tight spread. The actual numbers are a mean of 29.9 MPG with a standard deviation of 1.311, meaning the 36 mpg EPA highway rating by Subaru is so far out in left field that it is 4.63 standard deviations away from the crowd. This means that if there were a half million cars in this same spread, the Subaru Impreza would have a better than 50/50 chance of being the worst.

So, the question is, how can Subaru improve the fuel economy of the Impreza? In the 200,000 miles I plan(ned?) to keep the car it will cost me an extra $5,000 extra dollars for fuel, since the real world EPA highway MPG should be 30 MPG.

I got the information here:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...erformance.htm

and the actual data is this:

Subaru Impreza sedan Premium 4-cyl CVT___ 36

Acura TL Base V6 ______________________29
Acura TSX 4-cyl ________________________30
Audi A4 sedan Premium 4-cyl______________29
Ford Mustang coupe Premium V6 MT________29
Dodge Avenger Mainstreet 4-cyl___________31
Lexus ES 350 V6_______________________31
Mazda MX-5 Miata Grand Touring 4-cyl MT___28
Nissan Altima 3.5 SL V6 CVT______________31
Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium 4-cyl CVT______32
Volkswagen CC Sport 4-cyl_______________31
Volvo C30 T5 1.0 5-cyl MT ________________28
Volvo S60 T5 5-cyl______________________30
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Last edited by stevehnm; 03-09-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:01 AM   #2
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man, i should have gotten the outback. same real world mpg, and more space and ground clearance. oh well
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:46 AM   #3
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When you can't get people to pay attention to you on one forum, start another one with the same lame spreadsheets.

Isn't Consumer Reports continuing to recommend the car, for the second year in a row, even though they have a CVT long term tester of their own to drive? The answers are yes, and yes.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:31 AM   #4
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
When you can't get people to pay attention to you on one forum, start another one with the same lame spreadsheets.

Isn't Consumer Reports continuing to recommend the car, for the second year in a row, even though they have a CVT long term tester of their own to drive? The answers are yes, and yes.
The big problem on the other thread, and why this one was started, was hecklers from the peanut gallery who have the 5MT as opposed to the CVT and don't get basic math, yet through some mental quirk feel they are qualified to discuss the CVT.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
man, i should have gotten the outback. same real world mpg, and more space and ground clearance. oh well
My friend has an 2012 Outback, and I get 6-8 mpg better than him consistently. vv
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:54 AM   #6
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question doesn't the majority of those cars use premium fuel, are you adjusting your figures for that added expense?
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post
question doesn't the majority of those cars use premium fuel, are you adjusting your figures for that added expense?
Don't confuse his 'dollar savings' math with facts, he is trying to make a point.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
When you can't get people to pay attention to you on one forum, start another one with the same lame spreadsheets.

Isn't Consumer Reports continuing to recommend the car, for the second year in a row, even though they have a CVT long term tester of their own to drive? The answers are yes, and yes.
Yep. And adding oil to it doesnt seem to bother them.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
man, i should have gotten the outback. same real world mpg, and more space and ground clearance. oh well
I've had two 2012 Outbacks as loaners anf they absolutely did as well as my Impreza on mpg's. I also had a cvt impreza loaner. Hated the cvt, but it did a little better on mpg's than my 5mt.
MPG's are one aspect of the subaru I'm very pleased with. But I live like 25 miles from Disney World, so I dont have snow, mountains, or snowy mountains to kill mpgs.
Even on the gently rolling hills here, the mileage goes way down with any amount of incline.
Here in Fl, the real mpg killer is the A/C. It decreases mpg's dramatically. I did expect some decrease in efficiency but not 5+ mpg loss!
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:07 PM   #10
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post
question doesn't the majority of those cars use premium fuel, are you adjusting your figures for that added expense?
Well, if they use premium in one test they use it in the other. The issue is the inflated EPA highway mpg of the CVT Impreza compared to all the others, who are tightly grouped. Strictly a mpg issue. If some do use premium it doesn't seem to matter. All the others are EPA highway rated 30 +/- 2 mpg.

Is it that the CVT Impreza was or is tuned specifically for Subaru's EPA test, without hills etc., or what is the reason it does so poorly compared to the EPA estimate?
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:50 PM   #11
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The figure presented of 5000 is not valid in comparison to the vehicles named

Your hypothesis was that poor epa numbers equates to more money out of pocket
If the impreza does not get its epa number then it cost more to fill her up
however the vehicles you have chosen to compare the impreza use premium fuel

now if an impreza gets you 30 mpg and cost you 5k
what does a car that gets you 30mpg cost you in terms of fillups taking
into account that premium fuel is always 30 to 50cent more at the least
when compared to regular 87


Regular Fuel
Dodge Avenger FWD
Nissan Altima FWD
Subaru Legacy AWD
volvo s60 AWD
Ford Mustang Regular Fuel
volvo c30 FWD Regular Fuel



Based on the car listed the impreza should only be compared to awd vehicles with
regular fuel in which case thats the legacy and volvo s60
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:52 PM   #12
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Some cars require premium gas. So its an added cost. That's your concern isn't it? If gas was $1/gallon mpg wouldn't matter.

How about the up-front cost. Just a hunch, but I'd bet the Audi, Acura, Mustang, Lexus, and Volvos will cost $5000 or more up front.

If you're so concerned about 4mpg or whatever why didn't you get a Prius?
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post
Based on the car listed the impreza should only be compared to awd vehicles with
regular fuel in which case thats the legacy and volvo s60

I don't think the AWD has to be part of it. MPG rating is MPG rating.
However I agree, premium does play into it. If both cars get 30mpg and one requires premium, that extra cost equates to more cost just as less mpg would.

Similar like cars should be compared. All similar size, price and engine size.

Dodge Dart
Mazda 3 skyactive
Ford Focus
Chevy Cruze
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #14
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if you are eliminating awd from the formula then you should also not compare mtl cars to autos since cvt is in the auto category, cars should be 100% auto

AWD plays a big part no matter how you want to phrase it, awd cars weight more than fwd so a civic is lighter than an impreza and gets a better mpg. The only fair comparison is still awd with regular fuel otherwise the comparisons are just wishful thinking
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post
The figure presented of 5000 is not valid in comparison to the vehicles named

Your hypothesis was that poor epa numbers equates to more money out of pocket
If the impreza does not get its epa number then it cost more to fill her up
however the vehicles you have chosen to compare the impreza use premium fuel
Your interpretation of the calculations (not a hypothesis), is mistaken. The calculations refer to the fact that the Impreza really gets mpg's of the other vehicles listed, and their EPA highway figure is consistently 30. Therefore the actual EPA figure should be 30, not 36. The $5,000+ refers to the additional money spent on the Impreza at the realistic 30 mpg compared to the claimed 36 mpg. It has nothing to do with the other vehicles use of premium. It is simply the extra gasoline used by the Impreza based on real world calculations.

Also, AWD is in the calculations. It doesn't matter, just like it doesn't matter if it's a automatic, CVT, or manual. The EPA tests take all that into consideration. The manual versions of cars get different mpg's from the automatics, just like the 2WD versions get different mpg's from the AWD's.

Last edited by stevehnm; 03-08-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:14 PM   #16
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Still not a good baseline I would say a comparison with other awd vehicles would give consumers a better idea of how good or bad the impreza is. With that data then the consumer could make an informed decision
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:34 PM   #17
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I just want to say that My CVT SWP spt limited has provided me with less than 27 MPG hand calc since new, sometimes less than 25mpg. I have over 5k on the car now. I have done everything in my power and cannot reach 30mpg per tank, which as you can expect leads to a pretty boring driving experience, to be honest damn depressing.

Lets just think about this... doing exact same commute over several years -97 buick skylark v6 could consistently achieve 26mpg - - 2010 VW GTI 6spd -200hp and not so boring driving experience - - could consistently achieve above 30 MPG - - I dont think I am wrong to to assume that I would be able to achieve approx 30mpg + from this car. But do not. Why???? Is it possible the advertised achievable MPG's for the CVT are inflated?

I have read and read and read.... so many reasons why I should just accept this due to reasons as AWD, at least it doesn't break down, I love my car so I am ok with it, yeh but if it snows I can get places, my old car had horrible MPG's so... and so on.

So IMO yes, there is a serious problem with the Advertised MPG claims for the CVT by Subaru. IMO the CVT when driven in real world situations, as many buyers purchased the car for, was drastically false advertised and will leave MANY buyers with a feeling of being taken, lied to, and frankly wripped off. Many buyers moved on from other cars based upon advertised MPG's which they felt were obtainable only to find they are not. That is what I am living with. Not a bad car, drives nice, has some rattles, but consumers dont like to be made a fool of, which IMO the CVT advertised MPG's does. Before all the rebuttles come flying in again. This is about the CVT, I cannot and won't comment on M/T, would be ignorant for me to do so.

My biggest problem is, Every car I have ever owned/currently own I can/have always been able to achieve and beat the MPG claims. There are reasons out of my control why I cannot with this car. They are called false advertising. I have file opened with SOA and time will tell if anything transpires. Based upon what I have read on this forum, there are more buyers who feel similar to me. If you do, please do what I did and call SOA and tell them you want a file opened and lets do something about this.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:50 PM   #18
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Not a bad idea having a file open at the very least you might be able to push for a reprogramming of cvt computer. If all the dissatisfied cvt drivers did this soa might act a bit faster in implementation of updated software
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:12 PM   #19
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I would like to file a complaint. Does anyone know the phone number for SOA?
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
I would like to file a complaint. Does anyone know the phone number for SOA?
Subaru of America, INC.
Subaru Plaza
PO Box 6000
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034

1-800-SUBARU3 1-800-782-2783

Wolverines!!

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:56 AM   #21
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I believe the beef the OP has is....not comparing one car to another in terms of MPG, it's the disparity of "claimed" MPG vs. real life.

Why is it that some cars can actual MPG's close to their claimed MPG's while the CVT is so far off.
This could be considered misleading/fraud.

Thus the expectation of "claimed" dropped to "expected real world/actual" still does not match "actual real world" MPG's.

This takes into account premium vs. regular, AWD vs. 2WD, etc. It's NOT a comparison of one car to another, it's claimed mileage vs. actual.
We all know it's difficult to get what is claimed, so we accept we will be some amount less.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
I believe the beef the OP has is....not comparing one car to another in terms of MPG, it's the disparity of "claimed" MPG vs. real life.

Why is it that some cars can actual MPG's close to their claimed MPG's while the CVT is so far off.
This could be considered misleading/fraud.

Thus the expectation of "claimed" dropped to "expected real world/actual" still does not match "actual real world" MPG's.

This takes into account premium vs. regular, AWD vs. 2WD, etc. It's NOT a comparison of one car to another, it's claimed mileage vs. actual.
We all know it's difficult to get what is claimed, so we accept we will be some amount less.
It's only difficult with the CVT Impreza. If you look at the original post, those cars, rated at about 30 mpg, get their claimed mpg.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
I would like to file a complaint. Does anyone know the phone number for SOA?
I love my Subaru sti and I love Subaru but me and my wife just bought a cross trek Xv because of the gas mileage and are pretty pissed about our results. We spend most of the day on highways doing 70mph and very little time on side streets. Our car tells us we are only getting 25.5mpg. Wtf is that crap??? That's the same as their claim for city.

This is false advertisement and in a time when the economy is crap and people are trying to buy smart. We all bought our cars because of the claims of mpg and our trust and love for Subaru products and in the end Subaru screwed us over.

Call them .... Get enough people together that own these cars and show them we won't take this laying down.

Last edited by Purple Drink; 03-09-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:13 AM   #24
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Drink View Post
I love my Subaru sti and I love Subaru but me and my wife just bought a cross trek Xv because of the gas mileage and are pretty pissed about our results. We spend most of the day on highways doing 70mph and very little time on side streets. Our car tells us we are only getting 25.5mpg. Wtf is that crap??? That's the same as their claim for city.

This is false advertisement and in a time when the economy is crap and people are trying to buy smart. We all bought our cars because of the claims of mpg and our trust and love for Subaru products and in the end Subaru screwed us over.

Call them .... Get enough people together that own these cars and show them we won't take this laying down.
I take it you have the CVT?
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:21 AM   #25
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As the weather warms up, I'm noticing that my vehicle's fuel consumption appears to have improved, despite little change in the (horrendous) city traffic that I've been dealing with on my daily commute. I chalk this up to three potential (and possibly simultaneous) factors:

1. fuel composition - perhaps because of the warming temperatures where I'm at, the local refinery might be starting their process to convert to summer blend

2. reduced need for directing the vents to the windshield - meaning, less A/C being used (I still find it weird that Subaru doesn't turn on the A/C light even though the function is being used, I wish they wouldn't pander to stupid people)

3. car's break-in / wear-in reducing overall friction - I'm almost at 11,000 km (6,800ish Miles, for those of you not on the metric system). The car has already had one oil change performed at around 6,900 km (just under 4,300 miles).

There's also potentially a fourth variable in play, which is air temperature. Cold air is more dense, requiring more energy to push the car through the same volume of air compared to warmer air, all other things being equal. However, I'm not an aerodynamics specialist.

My total overall average fuel consumption (estimated city/hwy ratio is about 90:10, with 70% of that 90 in the legendary craptastic Vancouver stop-and-go, red-lights-and-stop-signs-every-****ing-100-metres traffic) is currently at around 9.6 l/100 km (24.5 MPG), and is improving with each fuel-up. Windshield air vent use over the 10,000+ km is close to 80 on/20 off.

My most recent tank (at 10,525 km, 6,540 miles, with ratio closer to 85:15) was just a tad over 9.2 l/100 km (25.56 MPG). About 50 on/50 off windshield vent use.

My most recent road trip (at 9,500 km, 5,900 miles, for about 450 km, or 280 miles) consumed about 7.4 l/100 km (31.8 MPG), and that was with a ratio of about 20 city:80 hwy, with city traffic being much more reasonable than the p.o.s. Vancouver traffic. "Highway" speeds here in BC are generally between 60-110 km/hr (37-68 MPH), with most "highway" speed limits (ie. 60-65%) pegged at between 80-90 km/hr (50-56 MPH). About 60 on/40 off windshield vent use during my roadtrip.

My current tank might break 9 l/100 km (26 MPG), with about 90 city:10 hwy, and 30 on/70 off windshield vent use. Based on the current tank's usage figures, my car might even make a run for breaking 8.5 l/100 km (27.67 MPG).

All figures are hand-calculated from fuel filled vs. km between fuel-ups. I haven't been purposely "hyper-km"ing it (and wouldn't be able to anyways, given the ****ty traffic in Vancouver). Take those figures as you will.

EDIT: For the record, my vehicle has 16" wheels.

Last edited by lymphomaniac; 03-09-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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