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Old 03-07-2013, 11:57 AM   #1
clontz_wi64
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Default running problem a/f 1 out of range

Car seems to run fine, slight hesitation when putting a load on the car going up hill but very subtle. I check my loggs and looks like i'm out of the +/- 8% range. Does my MAF log look fine? I just pulled off my inlet and didn't see no holes or leaks/tears. Thinking i have a bad 02 sensor or maf problem. Cobb stage 2 OTS map on 2010 wrx with Sf intake, downpipe, walbro 255lph

Here's my AF learning 1 at idle, A= -1.3% B= -4.2% C= -7.6% D= -11.4% and af learning 1 is -2.3 this is all readings at idle. I also notice its about -7% when not warm but as the vehicle warms it goes to 8, then 9, then 10% pulling hills with a load on the car. Should I try replacing my upstream?

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Last edited by clontz_wi64; 03-11-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #2
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bumpo for helpo.... emailed cobb hopefully i get some kinda answer. I know ots maps run a little richer for ringland security but no clue if this is reasonable or I should be looking in to it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:26 PM   #3
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-10.16 AF Learning. I wonder what your IDC is (AFR really; but it does not look like you have a WB)?

What are all the AF Learning values (A, B, C, and D)?

You are outside what is considered normal for at least one of those parameters. Checking for leaks and/or bad hoses is a good idea.

Sorry, I do not know the MAF V to MAF coorelation for your car, but the MAF values themselves seem right along the lines of what they should be at WOT for your car. This would lead me to believe that your problem is either a leak or the O2 sensor, with a leak being more likely.

Are you running the SF intake map form Cobb?

Last edited by jebjkey; 03-07-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clontz_wi64 View Post
Car seems to run fine, slight hesitation when putting a load on the car going up hill but very subtle. I check my loggs and looks like i'm out of the +/- 8% range. Does my MAF log look fine? I just pulled off my inlet and didn't see no holes or leaks/tears. Thinking i have a bad 02 sensor or maf problem. Cobb stage 2 OTS map on 2010 wrx with Sf intake, downpipe, walbro 255lph

First thing is to make sure that you are running the Cobb SF intake version of the map. Your map should have "+SF" in the map name. If not, then you need to download the "+SF" version from the maps section at cobbtuning.com and reflash it to the car. Although this is unlikely to be the cause of your particular extreme trims as you would be running lean not rich if you were running the stock intake map (still you absolutely must be running the +SF map with the Cobb SF intake).

Your -10% A/F Learning 1 means that the ECU is perceiving a rich condition and pulling fuel to compensate. Bad MAF sensor is not likely here as it usually causes you to run lean with extreme positive fuel trims (and with low MAF values). I would start with a pressure or smoke test of the intake tract to check for post-MAF leaks. That is the only way to reliably determine if there are leaks or not. If you have an air compressor, you can build your own pressure test rig (various threads on Nasioc about this). If you find leaks, fix them and then reset the ECU via the troubleshooting menu on the Accessport. Then drive through about a full tank of gas and see where your A/F Learning 1 values end up. You can actually view all 4 of the stored A/F Learning 1 values via data logging or live data function by looking at A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D. Bad front o2 is a possibility, but I would rule out the intake tract leaks first.

Bill
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:00 AM   #5
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-10.16 AF Learning. I wonder what your IDC is (AFR really; but it does not look like you have a WB)?

What are all the AF Learning values (A, B, C, and D)?

You are outside what is considered normal for at least one of those parameters. Checking for leaks and/or bad hoses is a good idea.

Sorry, I do not know the MAF V to MAF coorelation for your car, but the MAF values themselves seem right along the lines of what they should be at WOT for your car. This would lead me to believe that your problem is either a leak or the O2 sensor, with a leak being more likely.

Are you running the SF intake map form Cobb?
Yea i'm running stage 2 +sf. i have a custom tmic and wideband, other parts to put on, but i was going to diagnose this problem first before I went any further. I'm going to throw the smoke machine on it. I'm thinking the stock tmic may be leaking from the 18+psi runs on it. So i'll switch it out and update. Then i'll check some o2 sensor and see if its getting slow on air changes and i'll swap it out.


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First thing is to make sure that you are running the Cobb SF intake version of the map. Your map should have "+SF" in the map name. If not, then you need to download the "+SF" version from the maps section at cobbtuning.com and reflash it to the car. Although this is unlikely to be the cause of your particular extreme trims as you would be running lean not rich if you were running the stock intake map (still you absolutely must be running the +SF map with the Cobb SF intake).

Your -10% A/F Learning 1 means that the ECU is perceiving a rich condition and pulling fuel to compensate. Bad MAF sensor is not likely here as it usually causes you to run lean with extreme positive fuel trims (and with low MAF values). I would start with a pressure or smoke test of the intake tract to check for post-MAF leaks. That is the only way to reliably determine if there are leaks or not. If you have an air compressor, you can build your own pressure test rig (various threads on Nasioc about this). If you find leaks, fix them and then reset the ECU via the troubleshooting menu on the Accessport. Then drive through about a full tank of gas and see where your A/F Learning 1 values end up. You can actually view all 4 of the stored A/F Learning 1 values via data logging or live data function by looking at A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D. Bad front o2 is a possibility, but I would rule out the intake tract leaks first.

Bill
thanks alot guys, i'll get to testing and check ic for leaks well. i have a little big of a whistle, sounds like pushing air somewhere under the hood at 10psi in half throttle. So hopefully smoke machine or pressure test will show a bad tmic. thanks again!
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:02 AM   #6
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Oh yea, i had 1 tuner tell me it was the CRAPPY COBB OTS map i'm running :| This didn't amuse me, i'm 100% sure it should be running a better fuel correction than what i'm getting according other stage 2 maps.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:24 PM   #7
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A crappy map wouldn't cause crappy fuel trims anyway. A crappy map may have crappy fueling targets, but if these are within the capabilities of the fueling system and the MAF and injectors are scaled properly, etc., the car should still hit the desired targets without extreme long term fuel trims.

Anyway, the tune is not the issue here.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:32 PM   #8
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exactly what i'm thinking. I just replaced my tmic with my custom big one and like i said before i check the inlet tube, but i'm getting the same readings. Also cleaned the MAF. So next i guess is the smoke machine and then replace the o2 sensor
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clontz_wi64 View Post
exactly what i'm thinking. I just replaced my tmic with my custom big one and like i said before i check the inlet tube, but i'm getting the same readings. Also cleaned the MAF. So next i guess is the smoke machine and then replace the o2 sensor
You need a tune for that aftermarket TMIC. Am I right?
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:13 PM   #10
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You need a tune for that aftermarket TMIC. Am I right?
Maybe, but the TMIC will not have any effect on AF Learning values, unless it is leaking.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #11
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I have a guy lined up to tune mine once I get this straightened out. I emailed Cobb tuning my map and they said according to my logg I have a small leak somwhere. So when I get back today. I'm breaking out my carb cleaner and see if its a quick find. If not then I got to borrow the smoker.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:31 PM   #12
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Well, smoke test showed everything is tight. Also went over every purge valve, line, intake, tb gasket and inlet of the turbo with some starting fluid and it was idling just fine so, i'm going to advance tommarrow and get a 02 sensor and see if this helps my condition. the bigger intercooler i tried on to make sure my old tmic wasn't leaking actually helped the deduction of fuel by 1% I'd say due to the Extra air flow. So i'm putting the stocker back on for the time being and see if the sensor fixes the problem.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:34 PM   #13
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So when i'm at operating temp now climbing hills at 55mph i'm not running -10% anymore about 9% but i switched back to the old one and its back to -10% so the big tmic thus was helping with a little extra air on the a/f learning. I hope that was a little clearer, i read my old post and seen i didn't describe it very well. Anyways any more imput is appreciated. Hope to get it diagnosed soon.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:28 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by clontz_wi64 View Post
So when i'm at operating temp now climbing hills at 55mph i'm not running -10% anymore about 9% but i switched back to the old one and its back to -10% so the big tmic thus was helping with a little extra air on the a/f learning. I hope that was a little clearer, i read my old post and seen i didn't describe it very well. Anyways any more imput is appreciated. Hope to get it diagnosed soon.
Changing to a different TMIC does not impact fuel trims unless it is leaking or you introduce a leak as a result of the install.

Bill
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:35 PM   #15
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Here's my AF learning 1 at idle, A= -1.3% B= -4.2% C= -7.6% D= -11.4% and af learning 1 is -2.3 this is all readings at idle. I also notice its about -7% when not warm but as the vehicle warms it goes to 8, then 9, then 10% pulling hills with a load on the car. Should I try replacing my upstream?
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:38 PM   #16
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why i had the lower reading Cobb Tuning was because i was looking at it before the car was at operating temperature. i've done this 4 times and everytime it starts as 7% and then gradually picks up to 10-11% after it gets to Operating Temp. This is making me believe the O2 sensor heating up is getting some crazy readings. Is it more likley that its my upstream o2 on the header?
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:59 AM   #17
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--This ended up longer than I thought, sorry for the extensive post. I highlighted the two actions items I suggest to make them stand out since there is so much here. --

First thing, based on how you are posting the information, it seems that you may need a little explaining of what AF Learning values are. Please pardon my rambling here as I am not only making sure the OP understands but I am also "thinking" out loud.

AF Learning 1 is not a seperate parameter, it is only the currently applied AF Learning A, B, C, or D value. AF Learning 1 is nice for logging because you only need to log one parameter vice four, but AF Learning A, B, C, and D are the stored values in the ECU.

The "AF Learning #1" table in your map defines the break points between ranges A, B, C, and D. Cobb uses the stock values for their OTS maps, as do most other tuners as far as I know. The range you are in is defined by your current MAF value:
A: 1.6-5.6 g/sec - idle
B: 5.6-10 g/sec - high idle / crawling in a parking lot
C: 10-40 g/sec - normal driving including highway cruising [this is nearly all of your driving]
D: 40-80 g/sec - accelerating / up hill / really fast on the highway [this value will also be applied to open loop fueling]

You do not need to report AF Learning 1 and it does not matter what you are doing when you grab A, B, C, and D values because they are stored in the ECU and are continually updated based on current/past trends for their respective range. I would grab these values from the ECU with the engine off, and save some gas.

For closed loop:
As air comes in the intake, the MAF senses how much air mass is flowing by it (g/sec). The ECU uses this value and programmed constants or other sensed parameters to calculate multiple other things. Using the programmed fuel injector scaling and fuel injector latency for the current system voltage, the ECU will calculate how long to energize the fuel injectors to hit a programmed target AFR (14.x normally). The AFR sensor then reads the resulting AFR and provides feedback to the ECU on how close it was to hitting the target AFR. There are two components, AF Correction and AF Learning. AF Correction is what the ECU uses to hit target AFR. As engine run time goes by, the ECU will look for trends in the AF Correction value and populate an AF Learning value for the appropriate zone. The ECU applies AF Learning as a blanket correction to that air flow range, but AF Correction is still used. AF Correction values are always being applied and AF Learning is always being updated based on AF Correction trends.

For open loop:
As air comes in the intake, the MAF senses how much air mass is flowing by it (g/sec). The ECU uses this value and programmed constants or other sensed parameters to calculate multiple other things. Using the programmed fuel injector scaling and fuel injector latency for the current system voltage, the ECU will calculate how long to turn on the fuel injectors to hit a programmed target AFR. There is no AF Correction from the O2 sensor but the zone D AF Learning is applied during the calculations.


Any change/problem with any of the sensed or progammed values will introduce errors.
-An air leak after the MAF sensor results in + and/or - errors depending on the location of the leak.
-Inaccurate MAF readings from a different intake results in + or - errors.
-A bad O2 sensor results in + or - errors.
-Overruning a FPR results in - errors.
-A failing FPR results in + or - errors depending on what is wrong with the FPR.
-Incorrect fuel injector scale and/or latency values results in + or - errors
-A bad/dirty MAF sensor results in + errors (possible, but unlikely to get - errors for a bad MAF sensor).
-A clogged fuel filter/injectors results in + errors.
-A failing fuel pump results in + errors.
-I have heard in at least one place that an exhaust leak can cause bad AFR readings, but it caused + errors and you have - errors.

Now, your values are interesting.
A= -1.3%
B= -4.2%
C= -7.6%
D= -11.4%

Taken individually: A and B are just fine, C is border line high and D is too high.
Taken as a group: your values progress more negative as airflow goes up. Your ECU is trying to lean-out the fuel mixture more and more as airflow goes up. I would suppose that if there were a zone E, it would be even more negative.

A leak between your MAF sensor and the turbo is the most likely cause. As you suck in more air, the pressure is before turbo goes down, and therefore more air will leak in. I know you did a smoke test and no leaks were found, not saying it was done incorrectly, but it is possible that the test was not correct and you really have a leak. It looks like you did the test, try it again or take the car to a good shop that knows what they are doing with Subaru's.

I doubt your FPR is being overrun by the 255 pump since so many people run that pump with no problems. I also doubt that it is failing given age of your car.

I know you are running the Cobb+SF map, but these newer Subaru's seem to be very sensative to intake changes. If you really do not have a leak, then I would think maybe your car is "extra" sensative and you need a custom tune for the intake. Try putting the stock intake back on and flash the appropriate map in the car. Drive for a tank of gas to see where fuel trims end up.



I had a problem with AF Learning values after I installed a fuel pump and changed the fuel filter. I did not touch anything else with the car but fuel trims were suddenly high + in zone A/B, normal in range C, and really rich in open loop [would be a high - correction but I do not normally get into zone D with my driving]. I replaced the FPR and it had no effect. I sent my stock fuel injectors to WitchHunter for cleaning, good results with the cleaning, but no effect on the fuel trims. I ended up rescaling my stock fuel injectors and stock latency values based on the data from the WithcHunter tests. Now my fuel trims are good and open loop is close to target values. I have not done a leak test yet, but I plan on doing one, just to see, sometime after I get back home [I am on a business trip right now].
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #18
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why i had the lower reading Cobb Tuning was because i was looking at it before the car was at operating temperature. i've done this 4 times and everytime it starts as 7% and then gradually picks up to 10-11% after it gets to Operating Temp. This is making me believe the O2 sensor heating up is getting some crazy readings. Is it more likley that its my upstream o2 on the header?
A/F Learning 1 is based solely on the front o2 sensor feedback and nothing else. You need to make sure you are looking at the same range when comparing A/F Learning 1 values when just looking at the "A/F Learning 1" monitor, which is the current one being applied - it can appear to change as you drive because you are moving between the different airflow ranges. You can data log the A/F Learning 1 A,B,C,D values to see how they are actually changing individually. Intake tract leaks can also possibly get better/worse with different engine temps - you can think of how things expand when they heat up and contract when they cool down.

I agree with jebkey in that your trims look more like a boost leak than anything else. Hard to say for sure, but a smoke test can be done incorrectly and certainly miss something. The key is to make sure you cap off the end of the intake when doing the test. It could be the front o2 - that is a little more difficult to determine for sure by just looking at the trims.

Bill
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:24 AM   #19
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I know you are running the Cobb+SF map, but these newer Subaru's seem to be very sensative to intake changes. If you really do not have a leak, then I would think maybe your car is "extra" sensative and you need a custom tune for the intake. Try putting the stock intake back on and flash the appropriate map in the car. Drive for a tank of gas to see where fuel trims end up.
The Cobb SF intake is very consistent piece and the MAF calibration that we provide for the GR cars has been proven to be accurate across numerous cars running this intake with our +SF maps. There are certainly aftermarket intakes that can be difficult or almost impossible to get a consistent MAF calibration for, but that is not the case with our intake - we spent a lot of time getting this right in its design.

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Old 03-12-2013, 10:40 AM   #20
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I am a mechanic, smoke test doesn't do a whole lot the times i've used them unless its a major break or leak which i usually find with my ear and fingers way before i drag that machine out. and it didn't show anything on mine, big suprise. I'm going uptown now to build a pvc leak detector and unhook my purge solenoid and breather hoses and see what I find. I will report back tonight with leaks found or a new front o2 sensor ordered. I'm not a tuner just a wrench turner. Thanks for the help guys! Hopefully have it solved in a few.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:40 AM   #21
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The Cobb SF intake is very consistent piece and the MAF calibration that we provide for the GR cars has been proven to be accurate across numerous cars running this intake with our +SF maps. There are certainly aftermarket intakes that can be difficult or almost impossible to get a consistent MAF calibration for, but that is not the case with our intake - we spent a lot of time getting this right in its design.

Bill
I want to make sure I did not come across in a fashion that I did not intend to. I was only suggesting a T/S possibility, not questioning the quality of your great companies work.

I have the SF intake myself (my third one - 04 WRX, 06 Evo, and 05 STi), if it weren't for boost creep problems I would be enjoying it everytime I drive. Unfortunatley, I get boost creep with anything but the stock airbox.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #22
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Well I used 3" exhaust piping and had it swelled a bit to fit my coupler, then welded it shut and added a valve stem with the nut and grommet type from my old shop. Used the gauge on my tire pressure tool to inflate and check pressure.




Then heard the first leak. My agency power Bov/bpv. the base gasket in picture was leaking on top of the rest of it pretty much. so i put on my stock one for now. Fixed that. Then charged it up to not even 1-2 psi and could only hear one more that was very small and tiny. A pinhole in my turbo inlet, so i will try to find one later. I drove the car, leaving the inlet alone for now and my individual learns after 5 mile trip was all at 0.0 to -.1!! so that fixed But my learn c was the only one reading any thing more at -4.0 at partial throttle and wot. so definately fixed the -12% I had this morning. After I find a new inlet it will all be tight and sound again. Now anyone know where to find my agency power gasket set lol.

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Old 03-12-2013, 09:11 PM   #23
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left out a pic of my tire gauge i use to pump it up. I made this piece at the garage for practically nothing. My favorite one yet.

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #24
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I want to make sure I did not come across in a fashion that I did not intend to. I was only suggesting a T/S possibility, not questioning the quality of your great companies work.

I have the SF intake myself (my third one - 04 WRX, 06 Evo, and 05 STi), if it weren't for boost creep problems I would be enjoying it everytime I drive. Unfortunatley, I get boost creep with anything but the stock airbox.
I understand - just disagreeing about swapping on the stock intake as a step in diagnosis. There's plenty of proven data on how well the +SF MAF calibration works and how consistent our intakes are.

Bill
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:22 PM   #25
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I fixed the bov by the way. The vaccum nipple needed red locktite around itself, and the outlet then put pressure on it to let the liquid press through the cranks and let it dry over night. WALA. No more leaky bov. Going to put it back on since its not leaking air bubbles under water now. If anyone wants to use my picture of my pressure tester i made, your welcome to it. any exhaust shop can make you one for 10 bucks. 3" exhaust tubing swelled just a big to fit Cobb coupler and a bolt style valve stem. Thanks guys
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